# The Complete Military History of France **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 27, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539 "2003-03-27T15:52:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/61 "2003-03-31T14:29:02Z")
**elf6c** , I seriously doubt that **Banquet Bear** is an “anti-US bigot” or a “hate-filled assmonkey”. This _is_ about fighting ignorance. The silly anti-French nonsense is ignorant. **Banquet Bear** ’s posting of an obviously satirical counterpoint is way of driving home the point. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/62 "2003-03-31T14:31:17Z")
**Banquet Bear** ’s posting of an obviously satirical counterpoint is _a_ way of driving home the _message_. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/63 "2003-03-31T15:59:59Z")
Umm no. I don’t see any evidence of that. All I see is some of the same sort of bullshit as the OP posted, just with a new country swapped in. Same crap, different country. The OP thought his tripe was **“funny”**. As does the mouthbreather who posted this crap. What could he say- Hah I will see your bigoted crap, and _raise_ you some that I borrowed. Your right, this is about fighting ignorance. BB’s anti-US stuff is just as stupid as the OP’s. Just as two wrongs do not make a right, two morons do not make a salient point. I don’t see any satire, just an ass-clown taking the opportunity to attack a county **he** doesn’t like. Same thing happened in the stupid “Cheese Eating Monkey” thread too. It was offensive then, and is offensive now. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/64 "2003-03-31T16:12:57Z")
I think the satire is dripping off that piece. It’s OTT incorrect bullshit but intentionally so. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/65 "2003-03-31T16:14:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crusoe \* > \*\*When will this stupid fucking shit stop being allegedly “funny”? \*\* When it comes to French bashing, I’m afraid not anytime soon. As far as I can tell, using my own experience to judge, French bashing has been around for some time. I know I’ve heard it all my life. People you would think would know better, people I thought were thinking people, have actually said some of the stupidest stuff about the French. The current situation has just drawn the whole thing out of the closet, _again_. My little theory, again based on my own experiences, is that it’s usually men who are doing the bashing, and they usually have small…erm…you know, compared to the penile magnificence of the French. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/66 "2003-03-31T16:42:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > \*\*I think the satire is dripping off that piece. It’s OTT incorrect bullshit but intentionally so. YMMV \*\* Normally with satire you are making fun of the position. The article hardly seems to be mocking or ridiculing the anti-US glurge. In fact, it seems to be reveling in it. But maybe I mis-understand and: > [@](#): > > The war is the stuff of legend in the US, and many American schoolchildren hope that one day they too can go and cleanse Holy American Land of the filthy, alien indigenous peoples. is actually somehow satire making fun of the anti-US glurge which is filling as many email boxes as anti-French glurge. But I doubt it. As this thread has pointed out-- posting offensive statements and stating “its just a joke” ain’t cutting it and if you believe in the mission of this site never should. It is anti-US bigotry plain and simple. It is not a satirical examination of national stereotyping, it’s an exercise in it. No where is there any mocking of those who stereotype, only a joining of their ranks. The OP, the author of the glurge and the ass-monkey who posted it here are three of a kind. The only difference is the country they hate. ---
**Author:** ![DrLizardo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DrLizardo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrLizardo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/67 "2003-03-31T16:44:36Z")
Much as it pains me to say it, Desmostylus, at least Elf’s viewpoint is consistent. He objects to both items (the OP and Banquet Bear) as jingoistic idiocy. I think he’s wrong, but for fuck’s sake, at least he’s consistent! I have little doubt that Banquet Bear DID mean this piece as a “rebuttal” to the OP… But the guy he lifted it from DID NOT: on the site where Banquet Bear’s quoted piece was originally posted, THEY GET THIS: the comments almost exclusively evolved around how it was quite amusing and funny, especially in contrast to the French version (which they also seem to have found amusing and funny)… Interesting too, that B.B. decided NOT to include the preamble from the original writer, which says in part: > [@](#): > > Please bear in mind this is all in good fun, and is not an actual attack on the land of the brave and the home of the free. Investments may go down as well as up, keep out of reach of children and rednecks. So face it, the only discernable difference between the two is the target. Either they’re both acceptable or they’re both not. While YOU can simply, subjectively, find one funny and one not funny without (much) hypocrisy, your objection to one as “ignorant” but not the other is pretty evidently based simply on who the target of fun is. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/68 "2003-03-31T17:09:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrLizardo \* > \*\*So face it, the only discernable difference between the two is the target. Either they’re both acceptable or they’re both not. \*\* Fucking hell, for a minute I thought you’d almost grasped the point, but then you lapsed straight back into mouthbreather mode. I’ll try to keep this as simple as possible. Racial stereotypes are not funny. They are not funny about the French. They are not funny about Americans. They’re just not fucking funny. Now do you see the point people are trying to get through? Some things are only funny if you’re an asshole. Try not to be. ---
**Author:** ![DrLizardo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DrLizardo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrLizardo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/69 "2003-03-31T17:21:33Z")
I completely grasp your point, I just don’t agree with it, moron. And jokes about the French or the Americans are based on CULTURAL stereotypes, fuckwit, not racial. Both countries are made up of many distinct racial groups in case you missed that. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/70 "2003-03-31T17:26:29Z")
they still aren’t funny. ---
**Author:** ![DrLizardo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DrLizardo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrLizardo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/71 "2003-03-31T17:36:57Z")
Snoooooze. I think at this point we all know who thinks the pieces in question funny and who thinks the party of the first part are assholes for thinking so. Frankly, the party of the first part doesn’t much care. My last post was merely pointing out that a post calling the OP ignorant and not humorous, but touting the latter post by Banquet Bear as funny and satirical is hypocritical in the extreme. That should be true even by your standards. It seems that Gary K recognizes this even while so utterly misrepresenting my post that his English skills come into question. I’ll say it again: either one says they’re both funny, one says they’re both NOT funny and are obnoxious, etc. etc., or one is a hypocrite. Whatevah. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/72 "2003-03-31T17:39:46Z")
_yawn_ Time was you could actually make fun of the French, and they could make fun of us. Those were the days, I tell ya. I thought the OP (when I first read it some time ago in an email or something) was hilarious in some spots. I especially like the description of not being involved and getting invaded anyway. I just think that’s funny. Most jokes’ humor is not found in the adherance to fact. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/73 "2003-03-31T17:58:49Z")
Did I say I found Banquet Bears post funny? Erislover: there is a difference between humour and intent. the point of the OP is to imply that the French are all Surrender Monkeys, and this is currently en vouge because they dare to disagree with the Bush Administration. where were all these lists 6 months ago? Yes, they existed, but they weren’t being mass mailed. Its good to actually point out how wrong these lists are so that people don’t read a joke and assume they are based in fact, _and there are people who read them and assume they are based in fact._ > [@](#): > > Most jokes’ humor is not found in the adherance to fact. Aye, true, but then again most jokes dont resort to low grade xenophobia. ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/74 "2003-03-31T19:29:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elf6c \* > \*\*Normally with satire you are making fun of the position. The article hardly seems to be mocking or ridiculing the anti-US glurge. . . \*\* Indirect Satire is what happens when you take an example of something, then play that relationship out using a different set of principals. The humor is intended to be reflexive towards the original subject matter. Ergo, satire of say, faith healers, could involve a mechanic faith-healing a car. While there /may/ be humor inherent in Mr. Goodwrench laying hands on a Chrysler, the target of the satire is faith-healing. Part of being good satire is that it has to be dedicated to it’s construct: I.E. Mr. Goodwrench can’t drop aside and say “My God! What an idiot am I to try and faith-heal a car - where’s my wrench?” The satire’s got to "maintain character”. Accordingly, **Banquet Bear** ’s post makes _excellent_ indirect satire - the point is to illuminate how misguided and stupid the stereotypes in the OP are, given that it is possible to cast America’s experience of the Revolutionary or Civil War in such a bad light. The only problem with Indirect Satire as a commentary is that it can be easy to whoosh someone. If they’re not “in on it”, then it can appear that the satirist is as bad as the target. The dryer the satire, the more pronounced this problem. Oh yes: satire needn’t even be funny. The darkest, most biting satire is more likely to illicit nervous titterings than gut-busting guffaws. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/75 "2003-03-31T19:45:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Aye, true, but then again most jokes dont resort to low grade xenophobia. **TwistofFate** , while I suppose this is quite true, I don’t really see the issue here. In fact, I don’t quite see how the joke in any way focuses on **xenophobia**. In what statements do you see a strong reaction towards something _different_? Now, I would be a fool to suggest that the reason this is making its rounds is just because it is good clean fun, so I won’t. But that is not the same thing as saying it is some sort of “we hate the french because they are different” clothed in cheap humor. Secondly, the humor in The Three Stooges episodes was based largely off of **human stupidity and the infliction of harm on said humans**. Now, am I to suppose that if you ever smirked at a 3S episode you are just demonstrating your tendencies to desire to see people in pain? Preposterous. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/76 "2003-03-31T21:27:02Z")
Calling bigoted or racist statements “satire” does not remove the hateful or ignorant nature of most of them. The “just a joke” argument should never fly. If anti-French glurge is wrong, then anti-US glurge is wrong (even if under the razor thin veneer of satire). You cannot have it both ways. The “just a joke” and “just using a hateful stereotype as an example” are mere excuses for too many people to say exactly what they believe and then back off if they get creamed for it. I ain’t buying it. “My roommate posted from my computer”, “it’s just a joke- you guys don’t have a sense of humor”, semantic exercises, “my hateful stereotype is an example against yours”-- how many times must these excuses be foisted on us? Spare me. Sometimes something is **exactly** as it seems. BB’s post is just as a good example of a poster annoyed with the [stupid] anti-french glurge retaliating against those who posted that crap by posting his anti-US glurge in retaliation as is the contorted “indirect satire” excuse. Cut, Paste, Post–“That will fix them stupid Frenchies/Americans!!” Anybody bitches-- “hey its just satire WHOOOOSH!!” Well bullshit. This sort of behavior was wrong in the CESM thread and its even more offensive here. For the satire defense to even work, the poster must admit that they intentionally and knowingly posted offensive remarks- whether in retort or retaliation is always a matter of doubt. As if that’s is the only response to the issue- post your own offensive statement as an example. At least the OP may have been too stupid to know his “joke” was ignorant. BB has no such defense. Finally, I can’t believe I still give a fuck about this, but I do. Wrong is wrong. Sorry if I am a bit strident about this issue, this is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/77 "2003-03-31T21:55:35Z")
OK, **elf6c** , something is exactly as it seems. And it seems like a joke. Humor does not offend me. None of it. > [@](#): > > Calling bigoted or racist statements “satire” does not remove the hateful or ignorant nature of most of them. Neither does quoting a passage from MLK make one a huge supporter of civil rights. > [@](#): > > The “just a joke” argument should never fly. It isn’t even an argument, so that might go some way to explain that disconnect. “It was a joke” has the same rhetorical affect as “It is a tree stump.” There is nothing to argue, really, other than a difference in perception. But, since things are exactly as they seem, this will of course never lead anywhere as we are locked in extreme relativism. Wrong is wrong, of course, but also you see what you want to see. > [@](#): > > “My roommate posted from my computer”, “it’s just a joke- you guys don’t have a sense of humor”, semantic exercises, “my hateful stereotype is an example against yours”-- how many times must these excuses be foisted on us? You count them as it seems to matter to you. I, for one, can find it funny without hating the French. Whether or not that was the intent of the OP ::shrug:: That it was “just a joke” is not implausible to me. There is the cliche of dogs eating homework; nonetheless it is not unimaginable that, in fact, a dog has eaten people’s homework. It happened to me once (technically just chewed and drooled on it but whatever). How many times you heard people lie with that does not change **the fact** that the dog ate my homework, nor my **non-xenophobic impression** that the text is funny. ---
**Author:** ![Tir\_Tinuviel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@Tir\_Tinuviel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tir_Tinuviel)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/78 "2003-03-31T21:55:55Z")
You probably all know about this already, but I must admit it did tickle me, mainly because it’s clever. Type “French Military Victories” into google, and hit the “I feel Lucky” button - that should take you to the first site about French Military Victories. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/79 "2003-03-31T22:08:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrLizardo \* > \*\*And jokes about the French or the Americans are based on CULTURAL stereotypes, fuckwit, not racial. Both countries are made up of many distinct racial groups in case you missed that. \*\* Oh, my favourite wanker defence. Hey it’s not racism, it’s ethnic humour. Of course if you were anything other than a predictable, poorly educated little tosser you might even have bothered to check some facts. If your language skills were above remedial you might have worked out it was discrimination on the grounds of race, strangely enough, which if you could be fucking bothered to go read a dictionary you would find covers > [@](#): > > 2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics \ Of course now you’ll try to defend yourself by claiming that that isn’t what most people take race to be, because thats the next line in the wankers defence on this one. So then I get to point you to the various forums on racism, such as the UN’s [World Conference against racism](http://www.un.org/WCAR/e-kit/backgrounder1.htm) or [International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination](http://www.sahrc.org.za/definition_of_racism.htm) where you’d see racism defined in terms such as : “Any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin” But frankly, why fucking bother, because when you find someone trying to excuse themselves as not making racial jokes but ethnic jokes, then basically you’re dealing with the sort of pond life who’s too fucking stupid to be arsed with. ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2003, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539/80 "2003-03-31T22:28:18Z")
\< repost got eaten by hamsters \> Damn. Well, anyway - **elf6c** I’m sorry that you have difficulties with the concept of context. Farting in a Church is different from farting in the bathroom; whether you like to fart or not, there _is_ a time when it’s stupid to consider it offensive. All I really wanted to do was clear up your statement about what Satire “generally” is. There _is_ something called Indirect Satire, and BB’s post fits its description fairly well. I’m sorry if you think that’s semantic bullshit, and that you get offended by the use of satire in arguments. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-complete-military-history-of-france/164539.md?page=5)