# The concept of affirmative consent for sexual encounters **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147 "2013-10-02T00:26:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/41 "2013-10-02T20:24:02Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > All this policy really boils down to is: if you want to have sex, but you feel like a dumbass saying “I want to fuck you,” then only sleep with people who give unambiguous signals about wanting to sleep with you. If you want to sleep with people who aren’t yet giving you unambiguous signals, then say “I want to fuck you” and get a yes. The problem is the “unambiguous signals” part, especially since unambiguous signals about Step 1 are not valid for Step 2 etc. This can be a problem for some men, since some women tend to be more passive about Step 4. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/42 "2013-10-02T20:25:46Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I don’t know. I mean, affirmative consent is the standard for lots of things already, and you probably don’t find it that onerous in most cases. If I want to drive a girl’s car, I can’t do that without affirmative consent, either. I can’t pick up her keys while she’s sitting in the kitchen the night I meet her and walk into the driveway and drive to Vegas, and then when the police catch me say “she saw me pick that shit up” and expect that to help me any. They’re going to want to know if I had her permission, or if I didn’t. And I can’t just take a girl’s car for the weekend and then later say “I’ve driven this thing like five times before!” They still want to know did I have consent, or did I just take it. And the fact that affirmative consent is the standard there doesn’t mean that in the actual real world, every time I’ve ever driven a girl’s car I felt like I needed a contract written up to do it; it just means, you know, you don’t take the car unless you’re sure. The only difference is our perception of when we deserve sex vs. when we deserve the right to take somebody’s shit. > > All this policy really boils down to is: if you want to have sex, but you feel like a dumbass saying “I want to fuck you,” then only sleep with people who give unambiguous signals about wanting to sleep with you. If you want to sleep with people who aren’t yet giving you unambiguous signals, then say “I want to fuck you” and get a yes. As a group, what we gain is that most sexual assault stops happening. What we lose is mostly up to us: either we have blurred-line sex less often or we feel like a dumbass more often. Or maybe both. That doesn’t seem over the top to me. A better analogy is if you drive your girlfriend’s car with her in it somewhere and she does not say anything the whole way then gets out at the destination and accuses you of kidnapping her because she did not want to go where you drove her. There are some women who because of previous trauma freeze up when confronted with unwanted sexual advances. Requiring affirmative consent may help some of that, but that is not even close to all sexual assault. It is a fraction of date rape which is a fraction of forcible rape. You are way overselling the benefits of this. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/43 "2013-10-02T20:30:57Z")
You’re factually incorrect, **puddleglum**. And believe it or not, in your kidnapping example, you’d be in exactly the same bind as you’d be in if you were accused of rape - how can you prove you didn’t kidnap her? - so I’m not sure you’re making the point you meant to. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/44 "2013-10-02T20:38:38Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > A better analogy is if you drive your girlfriend’s car with her in it somewhere and she does not say anything the whole way then gets out at the destination and accuses you of kidnapping her because she did not want to go where you drove her. > There are some women who because of previous trauma freeze up when confronted with unwanted sexual advances. Requiring affirmative consent may help some of that, but that is not even close to all sexual assault. It is a fraction of date rape which is a fraction of forcible rape. You are way overselling the benefits of this. What I want to know is, say you’re in this situation. You have what you think is consentual sex with a girl. Afterwards, you find out she only froze up because of her prior trauma, and didn’t really want any. She may or may not think it’s rape, but how are you going to feel about it? Are you really telling me you’d be all “Oh well, she should have said something?” I am only personalizing this to try and bring it home. Cause I can’t even comprehend ever being in this situation. If I’m in an intimate situation with a man, and he “freezes up” you’ll be damn sure I’m going to find out what’s going on. And if he pushes my hand away, I’m not going to try again until I find out if he’s comfortable with what we’re doing. I don’t know. A lot of the men here are saying, “Well, she doesn’t give unambiguous signs, and so then if I listened to the possible nos, then I don’t get to have sex.” And what I’m telling you is that right there is the attitude that needs to change. No, you don’t get to have sex. So? That attitude - that somehow men are entitled to sex or that it’s worth pushing just a little, if they pressure her just a little, has got to go away. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/45 "2013-10-02T20:41:15Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I am only personalizing this to try and bring it home. Cause I can’t even comprehend ever being in this situation. You can’t compare women and men in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/46 "2013-10-02T20:49:04Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You can’t compare women and men in this regard. Why not? I mean, I may agree with you, but you haven’t said why. You’ve just issued a statement and left. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/47 "2013-10-02T20:54:04Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > There are some women who because of previous trauma freeze up when confronted with unwanted sexual advances. Requiring affirmative consent may help some of that, but that is not even close to all sexual assault. It is a fraction of date rape which is a fraction of forcible rape. You are way overselling the benefits of this. I don’t believe it is a “fraction” of date rape, or at least, not a small one. I suppose 8/10 is a fraction, sure. No, I don’t have a cite, because these are precisely the most underreported rapes: the ones where the victim feels like s/he was at least partly at fault and can’t prove anything. But I’ve done a lot of healing work with sexual abuse/assault victims and I work in first aid at a half dozen festivals where, unfortunately, assault sometimes happens. MOST date rape, in my experience as a shoulder to cry on/first responder, seems to be of the “I didn’t say no, but I didn’t really say yes,” or “I didn’t say no loud enough,” variety. Much more common than being roofied or held down/tied up and physically forced. Including in my personal experience (1 attempt at drugging, 1 forcible perpetrator, more than I care to admit where I didn’t resist but cried buckets as soon as I felt safe to do so.) No, I wouldn’t consider bringing a legal charge of sexual assault if I didn’t say no, but what I _didn’t_ say did not help the situation any. I learned to be more assertive on both my nos and my yeses as I got older, and my sex life has vastly improved as a result. I just found out that someone very close to me did this several years ago. I’m shocked and horrified, and I don’t know how to look him in the eye. He’s a good, good person. He just…didn’t hear her say no. She told her mom (one of my very best friends) that. “I didn’t say no loud enough.” And so he put his penis into an unwilling girl. That’s horrifying, and I don’t know how to put it aside and go on with our relationship (we’re not lovers and he doesn’t know I know). But at least now I know why he tried to kill himself and developed a short term drinking problem a few years ago. He himself was horrified at what he’d done when he found out she wasn’t game. There’s no reason, absolutely no reason, why either of them should have had to go through this. Just…listen for a yes. Don’t accept a lack of no as consent. Why is that so hard? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/48 "2013-10-02T21:04:02Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Why not? > > I mean, I may agree with you, but you haven’t said why. You’ve just issued a statement and left. I’ve discussed this earlier in this thread. Women are more apt to give mixed or misleading signals than men, and some women tend to be more passive than men, who are expected to take the initiative generally. So if a man acted the way you describe, it would be a very strong sign that the guy is unwilling, much moreso than with a woman. Conversely, by you reacting by pulling back in that situation you would not be sending out your own signal of disinterest to the same extent that a man would. This does not settle the issue of course - I’m merely making a point about the comparison of men and women in that situation. [An analogous comparison would be a woman advising a man to sit back and wait for women to ask him out on dates instead of taking the initiative himself because “that’s what I do and it works for me”.] ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/49 "2013-10-02T21:12:17Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Just…listen for a yes. Don’t accept a lack of no as consent. Why is that so hard? Does that actually fix the problem, or does it simply change from “I didn’t say no loud enough” to “he wanted/pressured me to say yes, so I did”? In these particular cases the problem is that the women is not declaring her intent clearly. They are physically able to speak, but are emotionally unable to make that step. Does the man fix this by demanding a clear answer about what she wants? Men are also encouraged to be bold, confident and self assured when interacting with women, does that allow for the woman to say no, or does he have to switch gears and tiptoe into the subject, to make it easier for her to say no? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/50 "2013-10-02T21:20:45Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Does that actually fix the problem, or does it simply change from “I didn’t say no loud enough” to “he wanted/pressured me to say yes, so I did”? > > In these particular cases the problem is that the women is not declaring her intent clearly. They are physically able to speak, but are emotionally unable to make that step. Does the man fix this by demanding a clear answer about what she wants? > > Men are also encouraged to be bold, confident and self assured when interacting with women, does that allow for the woman to say no, or does he have to switch gears and tiptoe into the subject, to make it easier for her to say no? Can’t we meet halfway? Teach everyone to be assertive \*and \*respectful, no matter what their plumbing? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/51 "2013-10-02T21:25:02Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Can’t we meet halfway? Teach everyone to be assertive \*and \*respectful, no matter what their plumbing? I highly doubt if you can. The disparity in assertiveness is most likely ingrained, considering that it’s the same way with animals (as a general rule at least). But even if it’s cultural, it’s very pervasive and broad and far beyond the scope of rape prevention education. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/52 "2013-10-02T21:28:21Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Just…listen for a yes. Don’t accept a lack of no as consent. Why is that so hard? It’s so hard because no one does it. Do you get affirmative oral consent every time you initiate sex with your SO? Maybe you do, but I think that would be extremely unusual. Going back to the U. of Iowa’s guidelines: > [@](#): > > Consent. For purposes of this policy, consent is a freely and affirmatively communicated willingness to participate in particular sexual activity or behavior, expressed either by words or clear, unambiguous actions. It is the responsibility of the person who wants to engage in the sexual activity to insure that he or she has the consent of the other to engage in the activity. Lack of protest or resistance does not mean consent, nor does silence mean consent. For that reason, relying solely on non-verbal communication can lead to misunderstanding. **Moreover, the existence of a dating relationship between the persons involved or the fact of a past sexual relationship should never provide the basis for an assumption of consent.** So if someone is relying on their past relationship with a person as implicit consent, they are violating this policy. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/53 "2013-10-02T21:29:54Z")
Why’d you add “oral” to “affirmative consent?” Because it makes it seem less reasonable? ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/54 "2013-10-02T21:39:23Z")
I guess I’m not seeing why this is a problem. Every time I’ve had sex - EVERY SINGLE TIME - I’ve received multiple statements of consent, usually loud enough so that we became somewhat self-conscious when we returned to lucidity. The closest thing to coercion I’ve ever done is take out the garbage in a blizzard, after which she figured she kinda had to come across (good-naturedly, of course). I honestly wouldn’t have it any other way. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/55 "2013-10-02T22:49:42Z")
> [@treis](#): > > It’s so hard because no one does it. Do you get affirmative oral consent every time you initiate sex with your SO? Maybe you do, but I think that would be extremely unusual. Going back to the U. of Iowa’s guidelines: That’s not what it says. > [@](#): > > expressed either by words or clear, unambiguous actions Often I get oral consent (and consent to oral 😉 ), but I always get clear unambiguous actions. I’ve also known the man for 10 years, and unlike the University, I do believe that a prior relationship in which we’ve given each other future permission to have our way with each other absent a clear no does change the rules. If we were merely dating and hadn’t discussed a blanket consent, I’d make sure the oral consent was oral and repeated each time. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/56 "2013-10-02T23:40:03Z")
> [@treis](#): > > It’s so hard because no one does it. Do you get affirmative oral consent every time you initiate sex with your SO? Maybe you do, but I think that would be extremely unusual. Going back to the U. of Iowa’s guidelines: Yes, actually, every darn time. We talk it through, how climax is going to happen, where its going to happen, sometimes that its not going to happen with any sort of penetration of me at all because I’m just not feeling it. And we’ve been married 18 years - if we need that sort of constant verbal communication during sex, when by now he is pretty tuned into what I like and I’m pretty tuned into what he likes, I can’t imagine how much miscommunication could occur if I had a lover I didn’t know as well, which could result in me in a penetration situation I did not agree to. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/57 "2013-10-03T00:43:09Z")
[Consent is not the absence of a no; it is the presence of a yes."](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5H6QvNmfjY) ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/58 "2013-10-03T03:00:10Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > What I want to know is, say you’re in this situation. You have what you think is consentual sex with a girl. Afterwards, you find out she only froze up because of her prior trauma, and didn’t really want any. She may or may not think it’s rape, but how are you going to feel about it? > > Are you really telling me you’d be all “Oh well, she should have said something?” > > I am only personalizing this to try and bring it home. Cause I can’t even comprehend ever being in this situation. If I’m in an intimate situation with a man, and he “freezes up” you’ll be damn sure I’m going to find out what’s going on. And if he pushes my hand away, I’m not going to try again until I find out if he’s comfortable with what we’re doing. > > I don’t know. A lot of the men here are saying, “Well, she doesn’t give unambiguous signs, and so then if I listened to the possible nos, then I don’t get to have sex.” And what I’m telling you is that right there is the attitude that needs to change. No, you don’t get to have sex. So? That attitude - that somehow men are entitled to sex or that it’s worth pushing just a little, if they pressure her just a little, has got to go away. I would not go to the police and turn myself in for sexual assault, would you?. The disconnect is that this is not a matter of morals and mores, it is a matter of crime and punishment. My own morals in these matters are much more restrictive than anything contemplated by any public university. The difference is that I would not seek to codify my own morals into rules for others in this area. If this were just a matter of a public education campaign it would be one thing, but this is about labeling acts as sexual assault and rape. Those are felonies which carry stiff prison sentences and a lifetime as a registered sex offender. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/59 "2013-10-03T03:03:25Z")
University policies aren’t laws. They don’t define felonies, dictate prison sentences or mandate registrations. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147/60 "2013-10-03T04:12:30Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Yes, actually, every darn time. We talk it through, how climax is going to happen, where its going to happen, sometimes that its not going to happen with any sort of penetration of me at all because I’m just not feeling it. Perhaps I’m reading this wrong, but are you saying that you discuss how and where you/your husband will reach orgasm each and every time before and during sex? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-affirmative-consent-for-sexual-encounters/670147.md?page=4)