# the concept of faith **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270 "2013-08-27T02:07:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/201 "2013-10-11T15:19:42Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > There is no way I can know that since it was your experience not mine. There is no way you could know whether a magician is doing a trick, or actually sawing a woman in half and putting her back together?? Here’s a clue for you(and I suspect you are the only one on this entire board that would require such a clue): If he could actually cut a woman in half then magically put her back together in a matter of seconds without any visible sign of scarring, he wouldn’t be on stage doing it to the same woman night after night-he would be on demand in hospitals around the world and living like a king! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/202 "2013-10-11T15:22:15Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > Believing is seeing, it’s that simple. Aloha Simplistic, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/203 "2013-10-11T15:26:12Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Never more will the ocean just be a lot of water. So it is with the Creator and His love for His children. What was once faith is now fact. I can pluck someone from the middle of Saskatchewan and show them the ocean. Reliably. Every single time you look, there it is - the ocean. No amount of faith would be required on their behalf to experience “ocean”. Please show me the creator without requiring me to first have faith. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/204 "2013-10-11T15:45:50Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] What turns faith into fact. Experience. There are thousands of people living in the US who have never seen an ocean. They have read about them and heard about them and seen pictures of them, but they have never experienced an ocean. They believe in oceans because of their exposure to the material about oceans. Now is this faith or fact? So you take them to an ocean and let them walk on the beach and wade in it. Put them on a ship and take them out beyond the horizon to experience the vastness of the waters, at night let them see the brightness of the stars hanging so close you can almost touch them. Now their believe in oceans changes to a knowing. Their perception has changed dramatically from whence the ocean was only a thought instead of a reality. When they speak of the ocean in the future their words carry feeling and meaning in them. Never more will the ocean just be a lot of water. So it is with the Creator and His love for His children. What was once faith is now fact. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=lekatt] There is no way I can know that since it was your experience not mine. [/QUOTE] These two posts would seem to be at odds. You go into a great deal of very imaginative imagery describing the experience of one person - yet you’re unwilling to even consider my fairly plainly described one? The only other explanation I can think of for this is that you consider me to be a liar, and I very much doubt you think that. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/205 "2013-10-11T16:12:42Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Have you yourself never seen any magic tricks, then? Optical illusions? Of course, but I don’t know what that has to do with faith. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/206 "2013-10-11T16:15:45Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > These two posts would seem to be at odds. You go into a great deal of very imaginative imagery describing the experience of one person - yet you’re unwilling to even consider my fairly plainly described one? The only other explanation I can think of for this is that you consider me to be a liar, and I very much doubt you think that. Better read that again, I just said their experience would change their perspective. The imagery was my experience. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/207 "2013-10-11T16:18:23Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > Believing is seeing, it’s that simple. Aloha Yes, believing is seeing. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/208 "2013-10-11T16:20:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > There is no way you could know whether a magician is doing a trick, or actually sawing a woman in half and putting her back together?? Here’s a clue for you(and I suspect you are the only one on this entire board that would require such a clue): If he could actually cut a woman in half then magically put her back together in a matter of seconds without any visible sign of scarring, he wouldn’t be on stage doing it to the same woman night after night-he would be on demand in hospitals around the world and living like a king! I don’t know what this has to do with the question I was answering. Nothing said there about magic. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/209 "2013-10-11T16:22:45Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I can pluck someone from the middle of Saskatchewan and show them the ocean. Reliably. Every single time you look, there it is - the ocean. No amount of faith would be required on their behalf to experience “ocean”. > > Please show me the creator without requiring me to first have faith. I can do that, but you have to follow directions. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/210 "2013-10-11T16:26:39Z")
People who believe they saw the Loch Ness monster… does that prove the Loch Ness monster exists or is it simply that they saw something and choose to believe it was the Loch Ness monster? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/211 "2013-10-11T16:29:53Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I can do that, but you have to follow directions. To the extent that the directions are not illegal or harmful to my state of mind and general health, okay. What are the directions? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/212 "2013-10-11T16:34:02Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > People who believe they saw the Loch Ness monster… does that prove the Loch Ness monster exists or is it simply that they saw something and choose to believe it was the Loch Ness monster? I don’t know since it was not my experience. ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/213 "2013-10-11T16:35:09Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > To the extent that the directions are not illegal or harmful to my state of mind and general health, okay. > > What are the directions? Be harmless and helpful. No more is asked. Aloha ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/214 "2013-10-11T16:38:39Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > To the extent that the directions are not illegal or harmful to my state of mind and general health, okay. > > What are the directions? It is a process that will take months maybe years so you should have patience. Start here and follow the directions on the affirmations. If there is a problem in doing them let me know. > **[Affirmations, a new beginning](https://aleroy.com/Affirm.htm)** > > Affirmations, a new beginning Good luck. This is the first step. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/215 "2013-10-11T16:40:21Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > Be harmless and helpful. No more is asked. Aloha That’s good ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/216 "2013-10-11T16:43:06Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > Be harmless and helpful. No more is asked. Aloha I have a question. Yesterday I made a business decision to choose one vendor over another. This means that one of the groups was rewarded with a large long term contract while the other has spent time and energy and was not rewarded for their efforts. Did I do harm or good? Or is it a wash in the grand scheme of things. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/217 "2013-10-11T16:48:24Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I have a question. Yesterday I made a business decision to choose one vendor over another. This means that one of the groups was rewarded with a large long term contract while the other has spent time and energy and was not rewarded for their efforts. > > Did I do harm or good? Or is it a wash in the grand scheme of things. One would say good and the other harm. In the grand scheme of things nothing happened. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/218 "2013-10-11T16:54:21Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > One would say good and the other harm. In the grand scheme of things nothing happened. So being “harmless” is not an absolute value, just a debit/credit accounting practice. Right? Can I rob a liquor store if I give the money to a charity organization that helps sick kids? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/219 "2013-10-11T16:58:05Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So being “harmless” is not an absolute value, just a debit/credit accounting practice. Right? > > Can I rob a liquor store if I give the money to a charity organization that helps sick kids? How many old ladies do I have to help cross the street to justify a bank robbery? My “old lady” count is currently 37, and I am currently in need of rent money. ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/220 "2013-10-11T17:10:28Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So being “harmless” is not an absolute value, just a debit/credit accounting practice. Right? > > Can I rob a liquor store if I give the money to a charity organization that helps sick kids? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > How many old ladies do I have to help cross the street to justify a bank robbery? My “old lady” count is currently 37, and I am currently in need of rent money. Let your conscience be your guide. Aloha [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270.md?page=12)