# the concept of faith **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270 "2013-08-27T02:07:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/301 "2013-10-18T00:47:43Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > What does a guy have to do in order to be taken seriously around here? If you find out let me know. ---
**Author:** ![Gus\_Mayo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b19c9b/32.png) [@Gus\_Mayo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gus_Mayo)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/302 "2013-10-18T08:42:11Z")
This is a fun thread… Some of the posts come close to my view on faith, but I thought I’d throw in my $.02. I see faith as the last piece in the puzzle when determining _beliefs_ when enough _facts_ are unavailable. Take the basic debate: Is there a God? There is evidence (not to be confused with proof) to support both sides of the debate. Both sides obviously find that their answer has the most evidence, and the least reasonable doubt, and both sides arrived at their conclusion the same way: using reason, logic, history and faith. History is the most diverse tool here, because it includes personal history, recorded history and the research presented by both sides throughout history be it scientific, theological or anecdotal, etc. Because there is no definitive, scientifically-concluded answer to the question, history, reason and logic lead an individual down a path to belief, but the final ingredient – faith – is needed before _belief_ is reached, be it theistic or atheistic. That’s why a reasonable person, I think, can respect the _beliefs_ of, say, Richard Dawkins and Pope Francis at the same time. Most would agree neither man is stupid. (My 1st post! Thanks for sticking with it if you got this far!) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/303 "2013-10-18T10:59:40Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > A strange kind of light that cameras can’t see. > > You need a new word for it: “light” isn’t accurate. Light can be recorded by cameras. Light is a very well-understood physical phenomenon. Magical glowy shit is not. > > “Pictures, or it didn’t happen.” Never a camera around when you need one. Unless… > [@lekatt](#): > > Well it can be pictured. The light is very bright but does not hurt the eyes to look at it. Actually it can be caught on pictures when it can’t be seen by physical eyes. I once asked a spirit friend of mine to stand in front of my couch so I could take a picture of him. At that time I had a Polaroid camera, it was years ago. When I took the picture it came out all white, completely white. I thought the camera had malfunction so I did it again with the same result. Then I asked him to step aside and I tried again and got a picture of the couch. Not to hard to figure out when I realized he was light. > > I frequently get balls of light in my pictures, but never got the whole picture light before. Words fail. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/304 "2013-10-18T11:14:03Z")
> [@Gus\_Mayo](#): > > I see faith as the last piece in the puzzle when determining _beliefs_ when enough _facts_ are unavailable. Take the basic debate: Is there a God? > There is evidence (not to be confused with proof) to support both sides of the debate. And the best evidence for existence of a god would be…? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/305 "2013-10-18T13:00:49Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Well it can be pictured. The light is very bright but does not hurt the eyes to look at it. Actually it can be caught on pictures when it can’t be seen by physical eyes. I once asked a spirit friend of mine to stand in front of my couch so I could take a picture of him. At that time I had a Polaroid camera, it was years ago. When I took the picture it came out all white, completely white. I thought the camera had malfunction so I did it again with the same result. Then I asked him to step aside and I tried again and got a picture of the couch. Not to hard to figure out when I realized he was light. > > I frequently get balls of light in my pictures, but never got the whole picture light before. According to her, the light wasn’t so much bright, but it caused the Wafer to grow as a beautiful light too beautiful to look at and she had to turn away, she claims it happened out of the context of time, but now believes it was an illusion because no one else saw it and had it happened they all would have seen the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/306 "2013-10-18T14:22:54Z")
> [@Gus\_Mayo](#): > > Take the basic debate: Is there a God? > There is evidence (not to be confused with proof) to support both sides of the debate. What evidence is there to support the existence of god? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/307 "2013-10-18T15:06:06Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > According to her, the light wasn’t so much bright, but it caused the Wafer to grow as a beautiful light too beautiful to look at and she had to turn away, she claims it happened out of the context of time, but now believes it was an illusion because no one else saw it and had it happened they all would have seen the same thing. This is really neat. The light can be different in brightness and color, usually golden in color. She was relaxed enough to get a tiny glimpse of the spiritual dimension. There is no time in the spirit world that is why it was out of the context of time and she had to turn away to keep from weeping from the love she felt. This kind of experience is common and happens during moments of complete relaxation to near death experiences. What she saw was real. The others did see it because they were not in the same mind set as she was. You never forget something like this. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/308 "2013-10-18T15:08:51Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > What evidence is there to support the existence of god? Think watch in the desert. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/309 "2013-10-18T15:19:15Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Think watch in the desert. Think. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/310 "2013-10-18T15:23:09Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Think watch in the desert. Did somebody lose a watch?! Are you making the watch-maker argument? Here? In 2013? :rolleyes: See, it’s stuff like this that lead me to believe that you’re not really even trying to be taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/311 "2013-10-18T15:23:28Z")
I stood watch in the desert once. No Gods showed. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/312 "2013-10-18T15:27:40Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > I stood watch in the desert once. > > No Gods showed. you did it wrong - you have to think “watch in the desert” - then a watch will appear that only good could read (but not move) if the light is right. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/313 "2013-10-18T15:29:22Z")
What is a “think watch”? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/314 "2013-10-18T15:33:46Z")
> [@simster](#): > > you did it wrong - you have to think “watch in the desert” - then a watch will appear that only good could read (but not move) if the light is right. So, God wears a Timex Indiglo? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/315 "2013-10-18T15:37:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So, God wears a Timex Indiglo? OMG! \*\*\* I\*\*\* have a Timex Indiglo!.. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/316 "2013-10-18T16:15:06Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > OMG! \*\*\* I\*\*\* have a Timex Indiglo!.. Timex Indiglo - the watch of gods and wannabees alike. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/317 "2013-10-18T16:18:22Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Did somebody lose a watch?! > > Are you making the watch-maker argument? Here? In 2013? :rolleyes: > > See, it’s stuff like this that lead me to believe that you’re not really even trying to be taken seriously. Just pointing out the obvious. We humans spend our time trying to make something out of nothing. We learn more and more about less and less until we know everything about nothing. In the while we miss the obvious. The crystal beauty of water tumbling over stones worn round by the motion, We miss the myriad tones of colors born by hundreds of flowers. The wind on our face gently in the spring with birds chirping through the trees. We miss the emotions of an old man helping a young girl across the street. We have forgot who we are. Such a waste, such a shame. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/318 "2013-10-18T16:23:02Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Just pointing out the obvious. We humans spend our time trying to make something out of nothing. We learn more and more about less and less until we know everything about nothing. In the while we miss the obvious. The crystal beauty of water tumbling over stones worn round by the motion, We miss the myriad tones of colors born by hundreds of flowers. The wind on our face gently in the spring with birds chirping through the trees. We miss the emotions of an old man helping a young girl across the street. We have forgot who we are. What a waste. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/319 "2013-10-18T16:28:25Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Just pointing out the obvious. We humans spend our time trying to make something out of nothing. We learn more and more about less and less until we know everything about nothing. In the while we miss the obvious. The crystal beauty of water tumbling over stones worn round by the motion, We miss the myriad tones of colors born by hundreds of flowers. The wind on our face gently in the spring with birds chirping through the trees. We miss the emotions of an old man helping a young girl across the street. We have forgot who we are. Such a waste, such a shame. Oh please, Richard Feynman and many scientists today also look at those wonders, the real shame is to ignore the ocean of evidence that is out there to show how those wonders do not depend on the faith one mote of dust has in this universe. [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/10036024/Richard-Feynman-Life-the-universe-and-everything.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/10036024/Richard-Feynman-Life-the-universe-and-everything.html) > [@](#): > > In these days of frivolous entertainments and frayed attention spans, the people who become famous are not necessarily the brightest stars. One of the biggest hits on YouTube, after all, is a video of a French bulldog who can’t roll over. But in amongst all the skateboarding cats and laughing babies, a new animated video, featuring the words of a dead theoretical physicist, has gone viral. In the film, created from an original documentary made for the BBC back in the early Eighties, the late Nobel Prize-winning professor, Richard Feynman, can be heard extolling the wonders of science contained within a simple flower. > > There is “beauty”, he says, not only in the flower’s appearance but also in an appreciation of its inner workings, and how it has evolved the right colours to attract insects to pollinate it. Those observations, he continues, raise further questions about the insects themselves and their perception of the world. “The science,” he concludes, “only adds to the excitement and mystery and awe of the flower.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/320 "2013-10-18T16:38:36Z")
And here is a link to the “Ode to a Flower” by Feynman, it is a short animated clip. https://player.vimeo.com/video/55874553 As Feynman said, “science only adds to the excitement, the mystery and the awe of a flower; **It only adds** , I don’t understand how it subtracts” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270.md?page=17)