# the concept of faith **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270 "2013-08-27T02:07:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/321 "2013-10-18T16:55:37Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Just pointing out the obvious. We humans spend our time trying to make something out of nothing. We learn more and more about less and less until we know everything about nothing. In the while we miss the obvious. The crystal beauty of water tumbling over stones worn round by the motion, We miss the myriad tones of colors born by hundreds of flowers. The wind on our face gently in the spring with birds chirping through the trees. We miss the emotions of an old man helping a young girl across the street. We have forgot who we are. Such a waste, such a shame. All those things are worthy of acknowledgement and appreciation but your sense of beauty and awe is limited even by your own creative imagination. “Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And, the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics: You are all stardust. You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded, because the elements - the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution and for life - weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars, and the only way for them to get into your body is if those stars were kind enough to explode. So, forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be here today.” - Lawrence Krauss ---
**Author:** ![Gus\_Mayo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b19c9b/32.png) [@Gus\_Mayo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gus_Mayo)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/322 "2013-10-18T18:52:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And the best evidence for existence of a god would be…? The best evidence? That is subjective, don’t you think? I’m sure all theists of different stripes would give you a different answer. All atheists would too, if asked for the “best” evidence for the contrary. That’s why (IMO) in debates about the existence of a creator or lack thereof, you rarely see/hear “Oh, you’re right and I’m wrong, thanks!” The thread is about the concept of faith. All I’m saying is that faith fills the gap left by a lack of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/323 "2013-10-18T19:06:06Z")
> [@Gus\_Mayo](#): > > … > The thread is about the concept of faith. All I’m saying is that faith fills the gap left by a lack of evidence. …for you. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/324 "2013-10-18T19:16:54Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > I stood watch in the desert once. > > No Gods showed. Did Godot? ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/325 "2013-10-18T19:17:30Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > OMG! \*\*\* I\*\*\* have a Timex Indiglo!.. Can God create a glow-in-the-dark watch hand paint so radioactive that even He cannot lick the paint brush? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/326 "2013-10-18T19:29:24Z")
> [@Gus\_Mayo](#): > > The best evidence? That is subjective, don’t you think? I’m sure all theists of different stripes would give you a different answer. > All atheists would too, if asked for the “best” evidence for the contrary. > That’s why (IMO) in debates about the existence of a creator or lack thereof, you rarely see/hear “Oh, you’re right and I’m wrong, thanks!” > > The thread is about the concept of faith. All I’m saying is that faith fills the gap left by a lack of evidence. First welcome to the Dope. A good way of dealing with lack of evidence is not faith but provisional belief. If I have a hypothesis, and I’m getting ready to test it, it makes sense to believe in it but also try to find ways of invalidating it. If your test fails, you give up on the belief with no great commotion. Contrast with the cults who have predicted the end of the world. That’s been based on the faith that the Bible is true and that they know what it means. When they fail, do they decide that their faith was wrong? Nope, Oh we miscalculated. It will end in five years for sure. That’s faith. There are scientists who do this, but they get marginalized and laughed at, like the cold fusion people. As for disproving God - which God? There are millions out there. Some like the tri-omni God are logically inconsistent. Some like a deist god inhabit a universe indistinguishable from one with no god. It is the believer’s responsibility to come up with a hypothesis. I think we can be pretty sure no human God exists because none of the people who claim to have been in direct contact with a God know anything more about the universe than someone not in direct contact - and usually quite a bit less. Why would a God who cares about us wait for 13 billion years to make us appear? Why would a God who cares about us create a universe so unimaginably vast? The old model of the firmament, like in Dante, makes a lot more sense in a God created universe. And it is totally wrong. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/327 "2013-10-18T19:33:55Z")
> [@Ograbme](#): > > Can God create a glow-in-the-dark watch hand paint so radioactive that even He cannot lick the paint brush? What does god need a watch for? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/328 "2013-10-18T19:48:00Z")
> [@Gus\_Mayo](#): > > The best evidence? That is subjective, don’t you think? I’m sure all theists of different stripes would give you a different answer. > All atheists would too, if asked for the “best” evidence for the contrary. > That’s why (IMO) in debates about the existence of a creator or lack thereof, you rarely see/hear “Oh, you’re right and I’m wrong, thanks!” You brought it up. What do _you_ think is the best evidence out there for the existence of a god? Please try to avoid any variations of “I could tell you, but you would only say it doesn’t count so I’m not gonna do it!” Been there, done that, _really_ tired of it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/329 "2013-10-18T19:50:32Z")
> [@Gus\_Mayo](#): > > The thread is about the concept of faith. All I’m saying is that faith fills the gap left by a lack of evidence. Saying “I don’t know, but I’m going try to find out” will get you a lot farther in the long run then your “god of the gaps” method, which presumes everything and finds out nothing. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/330 "2013-10-18T19:55:07Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > All those things are worthy of acknowledgement and appreciation but your sense of beauty and awe is limited even by your own creative imagination. > “Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And, the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics: You are all stardust. You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded, because the elements - the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution and for life - weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars, and the only way for them to get into your body is if those stars were kind enough to explode. So, forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be here today.” > > - Lawrence Krauss I am not stardust, I am energy. You are assuming a theory is correct. The reason science cannot think outside the box is because they are the box. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/331 "2013-10-18T20:11:46Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Oh please, Richard Feynman and many scientists today also look at those wonders, the real shame is to ignore the ocean of evidence that is out there to show how those wonders do not depend on the faith one mote of dust has in this universe. > > [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/10036024/Richard-Feynman-Life-the-universe-and-everything.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/10036024/Richard-Feynman-Life-the-universe-and-everything.html) Religion took rational thought out of human life. Science took humanity out of life. Both miss the truth of reality. We are both human and rational. Both systems will ultimately fail once we learn who we really are, then it won’t be necessary to take roses apart to discover their beauty… ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/332 "2013-10-18T20:20:06Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Religion took rational thought out of human life. Science took humanity out of life. Both miss the truth of reality. We are both human and rational. Both systems will ultimately fail once we learn who we really are, then it won’t be necessary to take roses apart to discover their beauty… This is really just nonsense. The bottom line is that you were grossly wrong on your idea that people that appreciate science miss the emotions. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/333 "2013-10-18T20:27:54Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am not stardust, I am energy. You are assuming a theory is correct. The reason science cannot think outside the box is because they are the box. Once again, a demonstration of how little you know about science. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > The bottom line is that you were grossly wrong on your idea that people that appreciate science miss the emotions. You skipped over the rule where we are not permitted to tell him that his experiences with spirits and god are illusions but he has every right to tell us that we do not appreciate beauty. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/334 "2013-10-18T20:28:33Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am not stardust, I am energy. You are assuming a theory is correct. The reason science cannot think outside the box is because they are the box. This is ignoring even the basics about the history of science. Depending only on faith is how we got the idea that the universe was a box or a dome over a flat earth. [http://www2.seminolestate.edu/asalmon/From%20Eden%20to%20Babel.htm](http://www2.seminolestate.edu/asalmon/From%20Eden%20to%20Babel.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/335 "2013-10-18T22:31:50Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am not stardust, I am energy. You are assuming a theory is correct. The reason science cannot think outside the box is because they are the box. You are not energy. Unless your real name is Reddy Kilowatt, that is. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/336 "2013-10-18T23:49:57Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > You are not energy. Unless your real name is Reddy Kilowatt, that is. I am energy because everything is energy. Einstein and self-knowing ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/337 "2013-10-19T00:13:14Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am energy because everything is energy. Einstein and self-knowing > **[Matter and Energy: A False Dichotomy](https://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-physics-basics/mass-energy-matter-etc/matter-and-energy-a-false-dichotomy/)** > > Matt Strassler \[April 12, 2012\] It is common that, when reading about the universe or about particle physics, one will come across a phrase that somehow refers to “matter and energy”, a… Can you explain why you don’t think you are made of star stuff? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/338 "2013-10-19T00:46:30Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am energy because everything is energy. Einstein and self-knowing I am a leaf on the wind, watch me soar! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/339 "2013-10-19T04:34:51Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am energy because everything is energy. Einstein and self-knowing I am the Sirocco traveling across the Sahara-I blow hot air. ---
**Author:** ![Gus\_Mayo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b19c9b/32.png) [@Gus\_Mayo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gus_Mayo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/340 "2013-10-19T07:29:27Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > …for you. Correct! As I said in my first post on the thread, this is only my “$.02” > [@Voyager](#): > > First welcome to the Dope. Thanks! I love message boards and read lots of them. I never post, though, because threads on most forums just about always turn into a “flame war.” This one seems to be the most civil and diverse I’ve found, so I’m excited to learn a lot of different perspectives on my two favorite topics (politics and philosophy), and even throw some ideas of my own out there. That’s not to say that I’m anywhere close to an expert on politics or philosophy. I talk about football too, and I’m definitely no expert. Know what I mean? Also, this is my first experience with multiquote, and I’m pretty pumped that I pulled it off. (Thanks, “preview” button!) > [@Voyager](#): > > A good way of dealing with lack of evidence is not faith but provisional belief. If I have a hypothesis, and I’m getting ready to test it, it makes sense to believe in it but also try to find ways of invalidating it. If your test fails, you give up on the belief with no great commotion. > Contrast with the cults who have predicted the end of the world. That’s been based on the faith that the Bible is true and that they know what it means. When they fail, do they decide that their faith was wrong? Nope, Oh we miscalculated. It will end in five years for sure. That’s faith. There are scientists who do this, but they get marginalized and laughed at, like the cold fusion people. In my original statement, faith is only one aspect of reaching a belief, along with reason, history, and logic. The cults you describe use faith without history, reason, and logic (or facts!). Faith is only useful when used in conjunction with reason, history and logic to form a _belief_. Faith is also not necessary when dealing with established facts, and it’s dangerous when it is used without reason, history and logic. > [@Voyager](#): > > As for disproving God - which God? There are millions out there. Some like the tri-omni God are logically inconsistent. Some like a deist god inhabit a universe indistinguishable from one with no god. It is the believer’s responsibility to come up with a hypothesis. I think we can be pretty sure no human God exists because none of the people who claim to have been in direct contact with a God know anything more about the universe than someone not in direct contact - and usually quite a bit less. Perhaps I shouldn’t have used the question, “Is there a God?” when I framed my initial point. I was trying to address faith, and I chose a universal question, one which has not been definitively settled, with which to frame it. I should have posed the question, “Is there an intelligent creator?” to frame my point. That’s a universal question. Everybody believes that either (a) there is, or (b) there isn’t. Or they’re agnostic, or find no value in answering that question, but I digress. _Which_ God is irrelevant to my argument. I was trying to offer an example of faith, universally, as I see it, for the OP. > [@Voyager](#): > > Why would a God who cares about us wait for 13 billion years to make us appear? Why would a God who cares about us create a universe so unimaginably vast? The old model of the firmament, like in Dante, makes a lot more sense in a God created universe. And it is totally wrong. This is irrelevant to the question about faith, and to my argument. Also, an intelligent designer doesn’t necessarily have to care about us. Also, I’m not well read on Dante and I’ve never heard the term “firmament,” so I’m going to go look that up next. Thanks 😃 > [@Czarcasm](#): > > You brought it up. What do _you_ think is the best evidence out there for the existence of a god? Please try to avoid any variations of “I could tell you, but you would only say it doesn’t count so I’m not gonna do it!” Been there, done that, _really_ tired of it. I did not bring up what I think is the best evidence for the existence of God. I didn’t even state my position on that question. I only mentioned faith’s role in reaching a belief. Not copping out, I just feel like you’re trying to bait me into an argument about my beliefs about creation. That’s for a pm. Or another thread. Because regardless of my answer, you would only say, “It doesn’t count,” and we’d derail the thread (further). 😛 > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Saying “I don’t know, but I’m going try to find out” will get you a lot farther in the long run then your “god of the gaps” method, which presumes everything and finds out nothing. I agree! But I’ve posted long enough already, so I won’t bother restating any of my previous points… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270.md?page=18)