# the concept of faith **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270 "2013-08-27T02:07:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/341 "2013-10-19T13:06:04Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am energy because everything is energy. Einstein and self-knowing You believe because you wish it to be. You accept that is Love you experienced, that is your right, but it is something you experienced with your own mind and want it to be the truth, Just as a person can see an oasis I a desert but, it can be an illusion. The human mind can do funny things. when I was 4 years old I believed I saw a big white Rabbit pushing a wheelbarrow through our yard with a big load of colored eggs. I know it was just an illusion, but as a child my mind wanted it to be true. It wasn’t real, but I admit the illusion at the time seemed real to me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/342 "2013-10-19T13:13:11Z")
> [@Gus\_Mayo](#): > > I did not bring up what I think is the best evidence for the existence of God. When you make a blanket statement of fact that there is evidence on both sides for the existence of any particular god, it is right and proper in a debate forum to ask to see such evidence. If it was just a toss-off guess without anything of substance to back it up, just go ahead and say so. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/343 "2013-10-19T13:45:17Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > [Matter and Energy: A False Dichotomy – Of Particular Significance](http://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-physics-basics/mass-energy-matter-etc/matter-and-energy-a-false-dichotomy/) > > Can you explain why you don’t think you are made of star stuff? Sure, everything is energy including star stuff I am very surprised you asked. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/344 "2013-10-19T13:48:38Z")
> [@simster](#): > > I am a leaf on the wind, watch me soar! You are the wind also. You are all things. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/345 "2013-10-19T13:51:22Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > You believe because you wish it to be. You accept that is Love you experienced, that is your right, but it is something you experienced with your own mind and want it to be the truth, Just as a person can see an oasis I a desert but, it can be an illusion. > > The human mind can do funny things. when I was 4 years old I believed I saw a big white Rabbit pushing a wheelbarrow through our yard with a big load of colored eggs. I know it was just an illusion, but as a child my mind wanted it to be true. It wasn’t real, but I admit the illusion at the time seemed real to me. What I saw and felt was real. Pay attention to the children they are the key to understanding yourself. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/346 "2013-10-19T13:54:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When you make a blanket statement of fact that there is evidence on both sides for the existence of any particular god, it is right and proper in a debate forum to ask to see such evidence. If it was just a toss-off guess without anything of substance to back it up, just go ahead and say so. You just changed his mind about this board, he originally thought it civil. As for evidence of God you only have to look around you. Science has put you in a box. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/347 "2013-10-19T14:24:48Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You just changed his mind about this board, he originally thought it civil. As for evidence of God you only have to look around you. Science has put you in a box. Wow. Science is what has taken us out of the box. Religion and faith are what is trying to keep us and put us back in the box. Before science life was a mystery, dark and scary. Science opened up our eyes and let us actually see what was real. Science has helped us grow. Science allowed my grandparents, who were born before the Wright Brothers and Kitty Hawk to see a man walk on the moon. How much more awe inspiring can things get? Infinitely more inspiring than seeing an “glow” in a picture which is most likely dust or an insect. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/348 "2013-10-19T14:27:53Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > What I saw and felt was real. Pay attention to the children they are the key to understanding yourself. I’d rather pay attention to the adults that can tell fantasy from reality. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/349 "2013-10-19T14:36:11Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Sure, everything is energy including star stuff Did you click on the link I provided and read it? No, everything is not energy. > [@](#): > > I am very surprised you asked. Why? You claimed that you are not made of star stuff. Why not answer the question? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/350 "2013-10-19T14:38:16Z")
I’m right on the edge of closing this thing as being pointless. Lekatt, debating is about more than bland assertions. While witnessing is inherently a part of GD usually it doesn’t include pages of non-debate. Do it again and you’ll receive an infraction. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/351 "2013-10-19T14:47:45Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You are the wind also. You are all things. if I was teh wind, It would not be possible for me (as a leaf) to be ‘on’ the wind - I would then be in it - and well, that’s just wierd. If I was all things - then I would be also be you and that also gets really, really wierd. I am me, you are you - and we are not the same ‘thing’. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/352 "2013-10-19T15:15:56Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > Wow. Science is what has taken us out of the box. Religion and faith are what is trying to keep us and put us back in the box. > > Before science life was a mystery, dark and scary. Science opened up our eyes and let us actually see what was real. Science has helped us grow. Science allowed my grandparents, who were born before the Wright Brothers and Kitty Hawk to see a man walk on the moon. How much more awe inspiring can things get? Infinitely more inspiring than seeing an “glow” in a picture which is most likely dust or an insect. What does it matter that we put a man on the moon and still kill each other over most everything of value. That we hold prejudices against people not like us or think differently than we do. A man on the moon is not progress nor assembling a pile of money such a grand thing. All we did is crawl out of one box into another. In religion you were told to obey a certain doctrine and in science the same thing. Theories are not realities only guesses the same as church doctrine. Science says this and God says that, when will we learn. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/353 "2013-10-19T15:23:49Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I’m right on the edge of closing this thing as being pointless. > > Lekatt, debating is about more than bland assertions. While witnessing is inherently a part of GD usually it doesn’t include pages of non-debate. > > Do it again and you’ll receive an infraction. I made my last post before reading this. I wondered how long before this would happen. Science assertions are OK but not spiritual. Shut it down as you wish. There were others who shared my views that were treated rudely and left. This is basically a atheist/science board and all others are not welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/354 "2013-10-19T15:25:06Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > What does it matter that we put a man on the moon and still kill each other over most everything of value. That we hold prejudices against people not like us or think differently than we do. A man on the moon is not progress nor assembling a pile of money such a grand thing. All we did is crawl out of one box into another. In religion you were told to obey a certain doctrine and in science the same thing. Theories are not realities only guesses the same as church doctrine. Science says this and God says that, when will we learn. It matters that in spite of our flaws as a species we can still accomplish great things. The main difference is that science can change. If something is discovered that contradicts or disproves a previous theory that theory is discarded. The new information is not ignored and shunned because it goes against what was once thought. If new information disproves an aspect of religion or faith, it is ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/355 "2013-10-19T15:35:58Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > What does it matter that we put a man on the moon and still kill each other over most everything of value. That we hold prejudices against people not like us or think differently than we do. A man on the moon is not progress nor assembling a pile of money such a grand thing. All we did is crawl out of one box into another. In religion you were told to obey a certain doctrine and in science the same thing. Theories are not realities only guesses the same as church doctrine. Science says this and God says that, when will we learn. Bzzt. That earns the warning. Focus, my friend. Make arguments, not assertions. People will pay more attention to you that way AND communication will happen. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/356 "2013-10-19T16:00:12Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Theories are not realities only guesses the same as church doctrine. How many times have you been shown that this is absolutely not true-that when used in a scientific context, the word “theory” does not ever mean “guess”. Wiki petty much has the correct definition: > [@](#): > > A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on knowledge that has been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experimentation. Do not deny that this has been pointed out to you over and over again. ---
**Author:** ![Gus\_Mayo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b19c9b/32.png) [@Gus\_Mayo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gus_Mayo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/357 "2013-10-19T17:57:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When you make a blanket statement of fact that there is evidence on both sides for the existence of any particular god, it is right and proper in a debate forum to ask to see such evidence. If it was just a toss-off guess without anything of substance to back it up, just go ahead and say so. :rolleyes: OK, I’ll nibble, but not bite. If I were framing an argument for the existence of a creator, which I’m not, I’d start here: The universe exists. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/358 "2013-10-19T18:08:50Z")
> [@Gus\_Mayo](#): > > :rolleyes: > OK, I’ll nibble, but not bite. > If I were framing an argument for the existence of a creator, which I’m not, I’d start here: > The universe exists. And…? ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/359 "2013-10-19T18:18:30Z")
Faith is a gift from God … if you can’t prove there is a God by just believing in all of His works, the stars, the moon, the sun and the math involved in everything churning around each other plus the oceans teeming with life, the birds, the bees and by the way, “why didn’t Noah swat that mosquito”? If you can’t believe in what you see was made by what you can’t see … then how can you understand the concept of faith? > [@](#): > > Ephesians 2:8–9: To the Ephesians Paul writes: “by grace you have been saved through faith—and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God—not of works, lest any man should boast.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/360 "2013-10-19T18:25:49Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > Faith is a gift from God … if you can’t prove there is a God by just believing in all of His works, the stars, the moon, the sun and the math involved in everything churning around each other plus the oceans teeming with life, the birds, the bees and by the way, “why didn’t Noah swat that mosquito”? > > If you can’t believe in what you see was made by what you can’t see … then how can you understand the concept of faith? And your god is the only one that has made this claim? Why should I have faith in _your_ god, out of all the ones proposed through the centuries? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270.md?page=19)