# the concept of faith **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270 "2013-08-27T02:07:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/481 "2013-11-03T13:30:32Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > It has always amazed me that people with no experience know what people with experience have experienced. It is like if I haven’t experienced it then it is impossible to experience. There is a higher level of awareness that you are missing and therefor believe doesn’t exist. In time, in time. Just because one feels an experience from one’s own mind proves nothing, except a person’s belief in their own mind. I experienced seeing a large Rabbit with a wheel borrow full of colored eggs when I was 4 years old. I know that was only my experience and wasn’t real. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/482 "2013-11-03T13:45:26Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > Yes, my God is the only one that I know of that claims to be the creator of all heaven and earth. I haven’t studied all of the gods for there are many, but my time has not been wasted in loving him, studying him and believing in him. > > Jesus said to his followers in St John 17:24-25 > > St Paul said in Colossians 1:15–18 > > The Importance of Christ > The god who made all heaven and earth lives by faith in three persons … The father, the son and the holy spirit … the one that is in me right now doesn’t have to go ask the other two anything. For you see the other two are in heaven, the father and the son at his right hand side. The holy spirit is the same one that wrote the bible in the men of old and the same one that raises people from the dead and the same one Jesus offered up to us in prayer to his father in: > Do you cringe when you read the Word of God? That is the spirit of unbelief … fight it and try to yield to the truth. Jesus wants to live in you and work through you, but first you have to believe. > > Don’t mock God in your refusal just simply let your nay be nay or your yea be yea. The God you speak of was the idea of some other human being and did not write anything, and one just believes what another human said was inspired. so cannot prove anything. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/483 "2013-11-03T14:02:22Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > The God you speak of was the idea of some other human being and did not write anything, and one just believes what another human said was inspired. so cannot prove anything. As a post script, I would like to know where God existed, before there was a place to exist? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/484 "2013-11-03T14:46:58Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > As a post script, I would like to know where God existed, before there was a place to exist? And to anyone thinking of posting anything like “He just was.”, I’m just going to respond “He just was where?”. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/485 "2013-11-03T15:01:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And to anyone thinking of posting anything like “He just was.”, I’m just going to respond “He just was where?”. isnt there a better thread for that? this is about faith, not god. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/486 "2013-11-03T15:17:45Z")
> [@simster](#): > > isnt there a better thread for that? this is about faith, not god. It takes a lot of faith to believe in a contradictory all-powerful, all-knowing, all wise and eternal entity, but the amount of blind faith needed to believe that such an entity existed when there was no place for it be goes right off the scale. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/487 "2013-11-03T15:37:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It takes a lot of faith to believe in a contradictory all-powerful, all-knowing, all wise and eternal entity, but the amount of blind faith needed to believe that such an entity existed when there was no place for it be goes right off the scale. While I do not disagree with that - there are (or were) other threads devoted to the ‘does god exist’ debate - there are other nuances to ‘faith’ then just the belief (or lack thereof ) in ‘God’ - the discussion with **gus mayo** as a case in point. I’ve reported my own post to request a mod-ruling. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/488 "2013-11-03T15:42:50Z")
> [@simster](#): > > While I do not disagree with that - there are (or were) other threads devoted to the ‘does god exist’ debate - there are other nuances to ‘faith’ then just the belief (or lack thereof ) in ‘God’ - the discussion with **gus mayo** as a case in point. > > I’ve reported my own post to request a mod-ruling. Fair enough. Personally, I would consider “Faith in gods” part of the topic, not off-topic. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/489 "2013-11-03T15:53:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Fair enough. Personally, I would consider “Faith in gods” part of the topic, not off-topic. faith in - yes existence of - no IMHO, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/490 "2013-11-03T16:07:05Z")
> [@simster](#): > > faith in - yes > existence of - no > > IMHO, of course. They go hand-in-hand, I think. The amount of faith needed to believe in something that _can_ exist is miniscule in comparison to the amount of faith needed to believe in something that _cannot_ exist. What you have faith in is as important to this conversation as why you have faith. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/491 "2013-11-03T17:28:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > They go hand-in-hand, I think. The amount of faith needed to believe in something that _can_ exist is miniscule in comparison to the amount of faith needed to believe in something that _cannot_ exist. What you have faith in is as important to this conversation as why you have faith. But there in lies the rub - Faith requires no evidence (of existence) - so can exist in its own tidy little vacuum - therefore debating the existence of said thing is secondary to debating faith in it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/492 "2013-11-03T17:33:35Z")
> [@simster](#): > > But there in lies the rub - > > Faith requires no evidence (of existence) - so can exist in its own tidy little vacuum - therefore debating the existence of said thing is secondary to debating faith in it. But it matters when trying to differentiate between faith based on previous knowledge of that which is possible, blind faith in that which is possible, and blind faith in that which is _im_possible. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/493 "2013-11-03T21:16:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But it matters when trying to differentiate between faith based on previous knowledge of that which is possible, blind faith in that which is possible, and blind faith in that which is _im_possible. I fear we will go in circles here - and again, I don’t disagree with your post. By forcing the person stating ‘faith in god’ to go thru an exercise of ‘proving existence’ is futile at best, as stated before - faith requires no evidence whatsoever. Being able to frame your faith in ‘why’ is always better than just saying it is - but none of those ‘whys’ will ever be evidence for a given deity. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/494 "2013-11-04T01:52:26Z")
> [@simster](#): > > But there in lies the rub - > > Faith requires no evidence (of existence) - so can exist in its own tidy little vacuum - therefore debating the existence of said thing is secondary to debating faith in it. Or, God created the space he exists in at the same time he created himself. Or God _is_ space, in some way we don’t understand. Or God doesn’t take up space, but is extradimensional, in some way we can’t describe. Or Space was always there, just like God was always there. **monavis** has dropped this “gotcha” a dozen times in the past, and feels convinced that it is of portentous value in rebutting God, but it really isn’t of much value. It’s like the absurdly fundamentalist Christians who demand to know what happened “before” the Big Bang, or “where the Big Bang happened.” The primary difference is that the cosmologist says, “I don’t know,” and the theologian just makes up another nonsense term like “immanent” or “numinous.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/495 "2013-11-04T05:01:39Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Or, God created the space he exists in at the same time he created himself. I understand each and every word in that sentence, and the sentence makes perfect sense structurally…but no matter how many times I read it, it makes absolutely no sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/496 "2013-11-04T05:26:37Z")
Well, what are the limits to faith? Can you have faith in absurd or even insane ideas? God is so powerful that, at the end of time, he went back to the beginning of time, and created himself. What does “God has existed forever” really mean? Theology easily gets goofy this way. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/497 "2013-11-04T05:30:31Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > What does “God has existed forever” really mean? If there is a beginning and/or end of time, it means absolutely nothing. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/498 "2013-11-04T13:30:41Z")
[quote=“Trinopus, post:494, topic:667270”] Or, God created the space he exists in at the same time he created himself. Or God _is_ space, in some way we don’t understand. Or God doesn’t take up space, but is extradimensional, in some way we can’t describe. Or Space was always there, just like God was always there. **monavis** has dropped this “gotcha” a dozen times in the past, and feels convinced that it is of portentous value in rebutting God, but it really isn’t of much value. It’s like the absurdly fundamentalist Christians who demand to know what happened “before” the Big Bang, or “where the Big Bang happened.” The primary difference is that the cosmologist says, “I don’t know,” and the theologian just makes up another nonsense term like “immanent” or “numinous.”[/QUOT I am not rebutting God, Just that the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim God needed a creator, or at least a place to exist and It looks to me that place proceeded thing. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/499 "2013-11-04T14:53:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, what are the limits to faith? Can you have faith in absurd or even insane ideas? [Sorta safe for work.](http://oglaf.com/unction/) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/500 "2013-11-05T01:28:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If there is a beginning and/or end of time, it means absolutely nothing. Agreed. Also, I’m not sure that “time had no beginning” is meaningful. The clock has been running “forever?” No matter how many hours ago you suggest, the clock was running before that? There really is no “meaning” in any “infinite” declaration of concrete reality. > [@monavis](#): > > . . . I am not rebutting God, Just that the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim God needed a creator, or at least a place to exist and It looks to me that place proceeded thing. I simply have to disagree with this. I gave several alternatives. God might be, himself, the “place” he occupies. God might take up no space at all. God might exist in some “otherspace” that has no spatial properties. Or God might have created space at the same time he came into existence himself. The problem is that we’re deep in the throes of metaphysics, and a theologian can make up any pseudo-property of God that he wants. I respect what you’re trying to say, but I think it simply doesn’t work, because it is so easily answered. e.g., how big is God? Can he compress himself into a small space? Can he compress himself into zero space? Can anyone prove this, either way? For those who have faith, no question is unanswerable. They merely say, “It’s a miracle” and that ends it. For those (myself included) who do not have faith, the questions aren’t even interesting. I don’t know – and don’t much care – if God occupies physical space or not. There isn’t any non-faith-based way to address the matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270.md?page=26)