# the concept of faith **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270 "2013-08-27T02:07:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/81 "2013-09-07T12:27:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Just adding to it because it is fun. The man of logic would have never ventured forth on his own, there needed to be a motivational reason, hence the man of faith. > > So the logical man with the flashlight would stay at home with his thumb up his, if it was not for the man of faith who would venture forth even with out the flashlight. A question: Who invented the flashlight? Faith requires god to “let there be light”. The flashlight however was invented around 1899 by a man named David Misell, an inventor - no information on whether or not he was inspired to do so by faith. Metaphore play time over. Even the most ardent believer must surely admit that it’s reason and logic that drags man forward into the “unknown”. You cannot possibly believe that relying on 2000 to 4000 year old collection of notes on parchment is in any way forward looking. It is anything but that. To wit, sciences publish new information all the time – they are forward gazing and exloratory by definition. Religion and faith based phylosophies re-warm the same old hash, over and over, never saying anything new or revealing. They are backwards looking and intellectually dead (as Der Trihs succinctly noted elsewhere). ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/82 "2013-09-07T17:32:14Z")
> [@Lanzy](#): > > Belief - proof = faith Affirmation -\> Belief -\> Proof -\> Faith As a man so affirms, so will he believe and as he believes so will he perceive. Aloha ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/83 "2013-09-07T22:13:03Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > Affirmation -\> Belief -\> Proof -\> Faith > > As a man so affirms, so will he believe and as he believes so will he perceive. > > Aloha Affirm: state as a fact; assert strongly and publicly. Stating something not in evidence as fact, no matter how emphatically, does not make it “Proof”. You start off with an incorrect premis every time. Not surprising then that your perceptions are incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/84 "2013-09-08T02:16:06Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > A question: Who invented the flashlight? > > Faith requires god to “let there be light”. The flashlight however was invented around 1899 by a man named David Misell, an inventor - no information on whether or not he was inspired to do so by faith. > > Metaphore play time over. > > Even the most ardent believer must surely admit that it’s reason and logic that drags man forward into the “unknown”. You cannot possibly believe that relying on 2000 to 4000 year old collection of notes on parchment is in any way forward looking. It is anything but that. > > To wit, sciences publish new information all the time – they are forward gazing and exloratory by definition. Religion and faith based phylosophies re-warm the same old hash, over and over, never saying anything new or revealing. They are backwards looking and intellectually dead (as Der Trihs succinctly noted elsewhere). The invention if the flashlight does not disprove faith as a process that helps humanity. I don’t know the story of this invention, though I do know when we seem stuck in a problem we know to take a break from it, leave it, either sleep, take a walk, etc, get away from it - AND that will help. That is faith, there is no logical explanation as to why it does, till we do it several times and see that there is a pattern that it works, then we look in to it - make a logical explanation for it, but hey the man of faith was on to something - that is the man of faith leading and the man of logic verifying that faith works to something we accept today I don’t know why you are bringing up religion, perhaps personal vendetta, but faith does not require religion, just emotion. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/85 "2013-09-08T15:59:16Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > …I do know when we seem stuck in a problem we know to take a break from it, leave it, either sleep, take a walk, etc, get away from it - AND that will help. That is faith, there is no logical explanation as to why it does, till we do it several times and see that there is a pattern that it works, then we look in to it - make a logical explanation for it, but hey the man of faith was on to something - that is the man of faith leading and the man of logic verifying that faith works to something we accept today… Taking a break from a difficult problem by taking a step back and doing something different, or even nothing at all is = “faith”? :dubious: I see neither logic nor verification for this claim you just made. I see a great big _assumption_ leading to a _conclusion_ you want to be true, but I do not see any kind of logic or reason for either. ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/86 "2013-09-08T16:42:05Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Affirm: state as a fact; assert strongly and publicly. > > Stating something not in evidence as fact, no matter how emphatically, does not make it “Proof”. > > You start off with an incorrect premis every time. Not surprising then that your perceptions are incorrect. THIS is your response to my post which I have quoted below? > [@](#): > > Affirmation -\> Belief -\> Proof -\> Faith > > As a man so affirms, so will he believe and as he believes so will he perceive. Notice I said that “as” a man affirms, he will come to believe. Disagree with that? Also the connection between affirmation -\> faith is not a straight equality but an established psychological path. Do me the favor of including my quote when you reply to any of my posts. It will improve your ability to arrive at my premise. Aloha ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/87 "2013-09-08T17:28:43Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > THIS is your response to my post which I have quoted below? > > Notice I said that “as” a man affirms, he will come to believe. Disagree with that? > Also the connection between affirmation -\> faith is not a straight equality but an established psychological path. Do me the favor of including my quote when you reply to any of my posts. It will improve your ability to arrive at my premise. > > Aloha How about changing “will come to believe” to “_may_ come to believe”? ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/88 "2013-09-08T17:44:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How about changing “will come to believe” to “_may_ come to believe”? Hmmmm. That would depend entirely on the dedication and perseverance of the individual. Sufficient quantitative change inevitably results in qualitative change. IMO. Aloha ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/89 "2013-09-08T17:57:35Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > Hmmmm. That would depend entirely on the dedication and perseverance of the individual. Sufficient quantitative change inevitably results in qualitative change. IMO. > > Aloha The individual may come to find that, through dedication and perseverance, belief is not the right course of action. Sufficient quantitative change _may_ result in qualitative change, but who is to say with certainty what that change will be? ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/90 "2013-09-08T18:17:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The individual may come to find that, through dedication and perseverance, belief is not the right course of action. Sufficient quantitative change _may_ result in qualitative change, but who is to say with certainty what that change will be? Belief is the fabric of human thought. Those who have not knowledge have _only_ belief/opinion in their minds. God is beyond belief but is not beyond experience. The end is certain, the is time up to the will of the individual. IMHO. 😉 Aloha ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/91 "2013-09-08T19:28:34Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > Belief is the fabric of human thought. Those who have not knowledge have _only_ belief/opinion in their minds. God is beyond belief but is not beyond experience. > > The end is certain, the is time up to the will of the individual. IMHO. 😉 > > Aloha The above is true only if your god exists. Mea ku’i’o ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/92 "2013-09-08T19:29:23Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > THIS is your response to my post which I have quoted below? > > Notice I said that “as” a man affirms, he will come to believe. Disagree with that? > Also the connection between affirmation -\> faith is not a straight equality but an established psychological path. Do me the favor of including my quote when you reply to any of my posts. It will improve your ability to arrive at my premise. > > Aloha No, what are YOU talking about?.. :smack: I believe I quoted your post (#82) in its entirety. It’s not my job to try to guess that “-\>” does not mean “=”. If there is a missing constant implied or some missing magic required to go from one state to the other, the onus is on you to state it clearly. And no, I don’t disagree with what you posted. What I said was - if you start with the wrong assumption you’ll most likely arrive at the wrong conclusion. Both are an established psychological paths. Though I have no idea what you mean by that statment either. ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/93 "2013-09-08T19:44:21Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > No, what are YOU talking about?.. :smack: > > I believe I quoted your post (#82) in its entirety. > > It’s not my job to try to guess that “-\>” does not mean “=”. If there is a missing constant implied or some missing magic required to go from one state to the other, the onus is on you to state it clearly. > > And no, I don’t disagree with what you posted. What I said was - if you start with the wrong assumption you’ll most likely arrive at the wrong conclusion. Both are an established psychological paths. Though I have no idea what you mean by that statment either. Go in peace, brother. Aloha ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/94 "2013-09-08T19:47:32Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > Go in peace, brother. Would that be Hawaiian for “Talk to the hand”? ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/95 "2013-09-08T19:48:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The above is true only if your god exists. > > Mea ku’i’o Sent me scrambling to the Hawaiian dictionary. 🙂 You are absolutely correct. Aloha ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/96 "2013-09-08T19:49:12Z")
Mahalo plenty, brother. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/97 "2013-09-08T19:53:00Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Just adding to it because it is fun. The man of logic would have never ventured forth on his own, there needed to be a motivational reason, hence the man of faith. Who says men of logic aren’t or can’t be adventurous? Who says men of faith are, or must be? ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/98 "2013-09-08T19:57:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would that be Hawaiian for “Talk to the hand”? 😉 But don’t quote me. Aloha ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/99 "2013-09-09T00:29:54Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Who says men of logic aren’t or can’t be adventurous? Who says men of faith are, or must be? \*\* Czarcasm\*\* in his famous post # 53 of this thread, men of logic just follow men of faith and record their progress. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/100 "2013-09-09T00:35:22Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > . . . I said that “as” a man affirms, he will come to believe. Disagree with that? . . . Well, what about people who affirm…falsely? Like, a use car salesman who affirms, loud as anything, that this little baby here runs like a top…but he knows full well that it actually runs like a hobbled camel, he’s just lying has ass off to make a sale. It is a most emphatic affirmation…but he isn’t likely to come to believe it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270.md?page=6)