# the concept of faith **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270 "2013-08-27T02:07:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/121 "2013-09-10T00:45:24Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > So you want to make up your own positive sounding definition for faith so you can argue that it it’s a positive influence? I want to argue that emotion is a driving force of humanity that have a positive influence over all and that faith falls in to this and is actually this. Problem is that faith, especially on this board is automatically linked to religion, dragons, demons and bad, so yes I do wish to redefine the terms. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/122 "2013-09-10T00:47:22Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I want to argue that emotion is a driving force of humanity that have a positive influence over all and that faith falls in to this and is actually this. > > Problem is that faith, especially on this board is automatically linked to religion, dragons, demons and bad, so yes I do wish to redefine the terms. Have you considered finding another word that fits the definition you describe? “Faith” already _has_ a definition of its own. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/123 "2013-09-10T00:55:55Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I want to argue that emotion is a driving force of humanity that have a positive influence over all and that faith falls in to this and is actually this. Emotion certainly has some influence, but emotion is different from faith. > [@](#): > > Problem is that faith, especially on this board is automatically linked to religion, dragons, demons and bad, so yes I do wish to redefine the terms. So would you admit that faith as defined in Hebrews 11:1 is foolish and/or inferior to reason? ---
**Author:** ![TARL\_FURY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@TARL\_FURY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TARL_FURY)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/124 "2013-09-27T13:17:32Z")
I thank all of you for giving my question a fair analysis. I was hoping to find any actual proof/evidence for actual power of faith/belief, but imho any positive conclusions are unproven, so unless anyone wishes to continue this discussion, I will withdraw the question. Sorry for my delay in replying - my cell/phone was having big problems. ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/125 "2013-09-28T00:25:46Z")
> [@TARL\_FURY](#): > > I thank all of you for giving my question a fair analysis. I was hoping to find any actual proof/evidence for actual power of faith/belief, but imho any positive conclusions are unproven, Without faith, of course. Aloha ---
**Author:** ![TARL\_FURY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@TARL\_FURY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TARL_FURY)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/126 "2013-09-28T20:53:23Z")
Aloha yourself, jsutter. I live in Maui, Hawaii (Kahului) myself and I love it here. ---
**Author:** ![ruben4ruben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@ruben4ruben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruben4ruben)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/127 "2013-09-28T23:23:50Z")
Faith is something that can endure a test or trial. (like hard times or persecution.) Faith is an assured expectation of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 Example: i have faith my cousin will repay me the money i lent him. If he does not, i’d say i’d lost faith in repayment. Or even lost faith in my cousin. Blind faith without any basis for expectation is not faith. If a complete stranger were to ask you to lend him something would you have faith in repayment? If a neighbor with a bad reputation for keeping appointments would promise to come help you move early in the morning would you have faith in her showing up? Without some logic, some scrutiny of facts, history, reputation or even continuous checking faith is not faith but only being gullible. All persons of faith test their faith, check their beliefs and **demonstrate** that faith. Without _ **action** _ faith is just words. How else could i claim to have faith in my cousin if i’d never lend him a cent? Clearer example: If you can make someone do things against their conscience and faith just by threatening or killing them, they should shut up about believing in a God that can raise the dead and will erase all tears and trauma. (Psalm 37:10,11 and Revelation 21:4) Those with real faith in such a God will be happy to suffer. ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/128 "2013-09-28T23:45:16Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > … > Those with real faith in such a God will be happy to suffer. Excellent. Pain is inevitable, suffering (w/o faith) is optional. Aloha ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/129 "2013-09-28T23:54:11Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > Excellent. Pain is inevitable, suffering (w/o faith) is optional. > > Aloha Faith is like S/M? ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/130 "2013-09-29T00:14:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Faith is like S/M? Someone short of faith would/must experience the human condition as a bad trip. The faithful recognize that while we’re going to hell in a bucket, it’s a great ride. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/a9Bs4xhDyxw/maxresdefault.jpg "Grateful Dead - Hell In A Bucket (Official Music Video)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9Bs4xhDyxw) Aloha ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/131 "2013-09-29T00:16:21Z")
> [@TARL\_FURY](#): > > Aloha yourself, jsutter. I live in Maui, Hawaii (Kahului) myself and I love it here. I’m in Kekaha, Kauai. You got air miles? 😉 Aloha ---
**Author:** ![TARL\_FURY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@TARL\_FURY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TARL_FURY)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/132 "2013-10-06T19:23:00Z")
I am unsure… when I focus, it SEEMS like everything “just happens” to/for me. I am so far unable to make a conclusion - do I make it happen, or is it all inevitable? I don’t know for sure, nor is there a way to establish facts? I love a paradox. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/133 "2013-10-06T23:26:22Z")
Nope; there is no way to determine “free will” vs. “predestination.” Either you make things happen…or they just happen to you…and there is no conceivable experiment that anyone can conduct that will tell which of the two cases is true. If human volition is an illusion, it’s certainly a convincing one. Since you might have the ability to choose between different actions, the wisest thing to do is act as if you have meaningful volition. Study your options in depth, try to reason out the consequences, act responsibly, and learn from the outcome. If you do this, it will seem as if you are acquiring wisdom and that your future choices will be better ones. We not only have the illusion of choice, we also have the illusion of character growth, learning, self-improvement, and the benefit of experience. If they are mere illusions, it still does no harm to treat them as real responsibilities. And if they are real responsibilities, it could be the height of tragedy to treat them as mere illusions. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/134 "2013-10-07T11:55:09Z")
There is great difference between Faith and fact. Fact can be proven 100% of the time, Faith is just that, If proven it becomes fact, until then it is mostly desire for fact. A thirsty Man can look at a mirage in a desert, but if it isn’t factual he could die of thirst! ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/135 "2013-10-07T15:38:37Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > There is great difference between Faith and fact. Fact can be proven 100% of the time, Faith is just that, If proven it becomes fact, until then it is mostly desire for fact. A thirsty Man can look at a mirage in a desert, but if it isn’t factual he could die of thirst! That is only an illusion. Faith is what you have when you run for help that you will get there in time. Faith is part of everyday life for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/136 "2013-10-07T16:00:55Z")
In the common sense, especially in a religious context, faith is believing on either insufficient evidence, or on a complex of evidence made sufficient only by the faith element. For progress, testing out possibilities that are not determined by logic and prior knowledge probably is necessary, and certainly is helpful. But it’s not _faith_, because no _belief_ is necessary. You can test a possibility without believing it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/137 "2013-10-07T16:17:08Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > That is only an illusion. _Faith is what you have when you run for help that you will get there in time._\* Faith is part of everyday life for everyone. - italics mine No, that’s “hope”. Faith is one of those words that’s so often misused by many: - I have “faith” that the sun will rise come the morning. - I have “faith” that my family and friends will continue to love and support me. - I have “faith” that when I turn the key, my car will start. In every one of those cases “faith” is based on repeatable experience in the known. What we’re saying in fact is, we have “trust” based on prior experience. We may be let down from time to time. The car may not start some days. Our friends or family may let us down. A day will come when the sun may not rise for us. Does that mean that our trust is misplaced? At times, I suppose it is. But never more-so than when it’s placed in the unknown and unseen and unproven. In those instances, faith is all that one can turn to. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/138 "2013-10-07T21:37:52Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > There is great difference between Faith and fact. Fact can be proven 100% of the time . . . How I wish! There are a great many facts that are well beyond our ability to prove. Goedel even proved that, at least in terms of mathematical facts. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/139 "2013-10-08T00:27:24Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > - italics mine > > No, that’s “hope”. > > Faith is one of those words that’s so often misused by many: > > - I have “faith” that the sun will rise come the morning. > > - I have “faith” that my family and friends will continue to love and support me. > > - I have “faith” that when I turn the key, my car will start. > > In every one of those cases “faith” is based on repeatable experience in the known. What we’re saying in fact is, we have “trust” based on prior experience. > > We may be let down from time to time. The car may not start some days. Our friends or family may let us down. A day will come when the sun may not rise for us. > > Does that mean that our trust is misplaced? At times, I suppose it is. But never more-so than when it’s placed in the unknown and unseen and unproven. In those instances, faith is all that one can turn to. Faith, hope and trust are interchangeable words in my dictionary. Why try to read more into them than is there. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/140 "2013-10-08T00:28:44Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Faith, hope and trust are interchangeable words in my dictionary. Why try to read more into them than is there. Your dictionary is not the English dictionary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270.md?page=8)