# the concept of faith **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270 "2013-08-27T02:07:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/141 "2013-10-08T01:08:24Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Faith, hope and trust are interchangeable words in my dictionary. Why try to read more into them than is there. Could I ask you to lend me $1000? It would be nice if I gave it back, i’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/142 "2013-10-08T11:58:58Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Faith, hope and trust are interchangeable words in my dictionary. Why try to read more into them than is there. Words have meaning. In order to communicate effectively with other people, we need to have some assurance that we have a common understanding of the words we use. Else, how do we know what the other means when he says them? But you know that because many of us have been through this discussion multiple times with you, and yet you continue to re-define words using your own “dictionary”. Fortunately there is not The Official \*\*Lekatt \*\*Dictionary. There is the Webster Dictionary and Oxford Dictionary and many other widely accepted dictionaries which largely agree on the meanings of various words. Until the **Lekatt Dictionary** is formally recognized as a valid source, you’ll forgive us if we just… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/143 "2013-10-08T12:43:49Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > That is only an illusion. Faith is what you have when you run for help that you will get there in time. Faith is part of everyday life for everyone. That doesn’t make Faith fact, or true. Hundreds od years ago people had Faith that the world was flat, even Augustine in his city Of God said it was impossible for the world to be round. Belief is more by desire than truth, people tend to believe what ever they wish to be true. and many do not want facts! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/144 "2013-10-08T12:45:59Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > How I wish! There are a great many facts that are well beyond our ability to prove. Goedel even proved that, at least in terms of mathematical facts. Then it is just faith that there are unknown facts. ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/145 "2013-10-08T15:27:10Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > That doesn’t make Faith fact, or true. Hundreds od years ago people had Faith that the world was flat, even Augustine in his city Of God said it was impossible for the world to be round. > > Belief is more by desire than truth, people tend to believe what ever they wish to be true. and many do not want facts! Even today we have Flat and Hollow Earthers. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/146 "2013-10-08T15:48:14Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Words have meaning. In order to communicate effectively with other people, we need to have some assurance that we have a common understanding of the words we use. Else, how do we know what the other means when he says them? > > But you know that because many of us have been through this discussion multiple times with you, and yet you continue to re-define words using your own “dictionary”. Fortunately there is not The Official \*\*Lekatt \*\*Dictionary. There is the Webster Dictionary and Oxford Dictionary and many other widely accepted dictionaries which largely agree on the meanings of various words. Until the **Lekatt Dictionary** is formally recognized as a valid source, you’ll forgive us if we just… :smack: I find these words defined together in the regular dictionaries of the English language. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/147 "2013-10-08T15:50:51Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > That doesn’t make Faith fact, or true. Hundreds od years ago people had Faith that the world was flat, even Augustine in his city Of God said it was impossible for the world to be round. > > Belief is more by desire than truth, people tend to believe what ever they wish to be true. and many do not want facts! Theories are statements of faith. Don’t get hung up on the word faith meaning religion all the time. It can be used in many different places. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/148 "2013-10-08T15:58:13Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Theories are statements of faith. Don’t get hung up on the word faith meaning religion all the time. It can be used in many different places. Your personal dictionary is rejected, which means that you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/149 "2013-10-08T15:59:26Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I find these words defined together in the regular dictionaries of the English language. You seem to see a lot of things that others don’t, so this doesn’t surprise me at all. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/150 "2013-10-08T16:03:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You seem to see a lot of things that others don’t, so this doesn’t surprise me at all. I think you are right. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/151 "2013-10-08T18:57:36Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I find these words defined together in the regular dictionaries of the English language. [Hope.](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hope?s=t) [Truth.](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/truth?s=t) [Faith.](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith?s=t) Together in the same dictionary; Different meanings. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/152 "2013-10-08T19:45:41Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > [Hope.](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hope?s=t) > [Truth.](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/truth?s=t) > [Faith.](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith?s=t) > > Together in the same dictionary; Different meanings. In the definitions of hope I found the words, believe, trust, wish and expect. In the real world people use all those words interchangeable. But if you must keep digging. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/153 "2013-10-08T20:11:07Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > In the definitions of hope I found the words, believe, trust, wish and expect. > In the real world people use all those words interchangeable. But if you must keep digging. Different words-\>Different definitions-\>Deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/154 "2013-10-08T20:25:54Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Then it is just faith that there are unknown facts. I’m pretty sure it is more than faith there are “unknown facts.” This is demonstrated by the continuing success of science in discovering previously unknown facts. Do you hold it is only faith that science has more things left to discover? In any case, in mathematics, Goedel proved there were unknown facts, and in math, “proof” really does mean “proof.” ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/155 "2013-10-08T21:28:11Z")
I’m with you **lekatt**. It’s _difficult_ to converse with those still bound by their literal Spell of Words. So I don’t try. Carry on bra, Aloha 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/156 "2013-10-09T01:20:53Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’m pretty sure it is more than faith there are “unknown facts.” This is demonstrated by the continuing success of science in discovering previously unknown facts. … Quite often, this amounts to disproving what was previously held as “known fact”. Where will it end? > [@](#): > > In any case, in mathematics, Goedel proved there were unknown facts, and in math, “proof” really does mean “proof.” What he proved was that in any internally consistent conceptual universe there is at least one fact that can neither be proved nor disproved. > **[Gödel's incompleteness theorems](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_incompleteness_theorems)** > > This is an accepted version of this page Gödel's incompleteness theorems are two theorems of mathematical logic that are concerned with the limits of provability in formal axiomatic theories. These results, published by Kurt Gödel in 1931, are important both in mathematical logic and in the philosophy of mathematics. The theorems are widely, but not universally, interpreted as showing that Hilbert's program to find a complete and consistent set of axioms for all mathematics is impossible. > The fi... Aloha ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/157 "2013-10-09T03:42:54Z")
If any of you can spare 7 min to watch this, you’ll be a better person for it. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/2wviYuKDlKs/maxresdefault.jpg "A New Story of the People") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wviYuKDlKs) Aloha ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/158 "2013-10-09T10:38:01Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > If any of you can spare 7 min to watch this, you’ll be a better person for it. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wviYuKDlKs](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wviYuKDlKs) > > Aloha A beautiful video – let love show you the way. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/159 "2013-10-09T11:28:02Z")
I spared the entire 7:40, and I feel better already. 😉 If you discard the initial premise that we’re “separate” from the universe, the naration becomes a little pedantic. But some of the images are certainly inspiring and others heart-breaking and others just fun/funny. I get the sentiment though. I don’t know that anyone here will disagree that doing things that benefit others and in general serve to improve the world we live in is a very good thing. In turn those things benefit us as well. So what’s the big mystery you’re hoping to reveal or enlighten others with? And how does this reflect on “the concept of faith”? Are you saying “faith” is required in order to understand and achieve a greater good? ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/160 "2013-10-09T11:40:53Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I spared the entire 7:40, and I feel better already. 😉 > > … > > Are you saying “faith” is required in order to understand and achieve a greater good? Faith is for those (like me) who need it. Aloha [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270.md?page=9)