# the concept of faith **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270 "2013-08-27T02:07:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/161 "2013-10-09T11:57:50Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > Faith is for those (like me) who need it. > > Aloha Best and most honest answer I’ve heard in a long time. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/162 "2013-10-09T12:04:48Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > That is only an illusion. Faith is what you have when you run for help that you will get there in time. Faith is part of everyday life for everyone. The FACT is that they may not get there at all! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/163 "2013-10-09T12:08:20Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > How I wish! There are a great many facts that are well beyond our ability to prove. Goedel even proved that, at least in terms of mathematical facts. You are indeed correct, but Facts come as a result of testing or learning in the future, Like the belief at one time there was life on Mars or the earth was flat! ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/164 "2013-10-09T13:06:27Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > The FACT is that they may not get there at all! Faith keeps the “can’t do” attitude at bay so you can get there in time. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/165 "2013-10-09T13:11:14Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Faith keeps the “can’t do” attitude at bay so you can get there in time. Screw faith-just leave the house five minutes earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/166 "2013-10-09T13:20:30Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > Quite often, this amounts to disproving what was previously held as “known fact”. Where will it end? It won’t. That’s the beauty of it. ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/167 "2013-10-09T13:49:16Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > It won’t. That’s the beauty of it. It ends for me in faith/truth. The need for hope disappears in these. Aloha ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/168 "2013-10-09T13:52:46Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > The FACT is that they may not get there at all! Which to me is simply finding that I wasn’t going where I thought I was. 🙂 It’s all good. Aloha ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/169 "2013-10-09T14:12:49Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > Which to me is simply finding that I wasn’t going where I thought I was. 🙂 > > It’s all good. > > Aloha I guess that means that if you don’t give a shit about where you’re going, it doesn’t matter where you end up. ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/170 "2013-10-09T14:20:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I guess that means that if you don’t give a shit about where you’re going, it doesn’t matter where you end up. I know where I’m (we’re) ultimately heading. As to the details of the the journey and how long it will take I won’t speculate. Aloha ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/171 "2013-10-09T14:29:02Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > It ends for me in faith/truth. The need for hope disappears in these. > > Aloha It has precious little to do with hope. How can I put this… OK, you remember the _X-Files_ ? Did you ever watch that show ? I did, when I was a teenager, I was a huge fan. And one of the things about that show was that there was this big, shadowy, convoluted, complex “Hidden Truth” that carried what was later called the mythology of the show. But they would never just tell you that Hidden Truth, it was hardly ever explained or even expo-speak’d about ; instead once in a while there’d be myth-related episodes where the heroes found out a little piece of it here, little piece there, gradually building up to Something. It went on a long time like that. And then… and then eventually they ran out of pieces to come up with, the show was turning to crap anyway, so they wrapped up the Hidden Truth, told all of it, tied everything with one neat bow and filmed that. And in the end, the “big truth” was utterly unsatisfying. It left every viewer saying “8 years I’ve been watching this show for \*this \*?”. Lots of hate for the show. But what we forgot was that those 8 years before the Big Reveal had been thoroughly enjoyable. Just looking at what little bits of the “big truth” we did have, trying to make them fit, spouting theories about what the next reveal would be - that had been _fun_. Tremendous, tremendous fun. Knowing how it all fit together, however, was meaningless. Like skipping to the end of a whodunit : when it’s all said and done, what do you care who killed Pamela Rose ? The point of the book is to try and find it out, not \*know \*it. The great thing about the truth is not the truth. The truth is almost always disappointing, even when you’re not even wrong about what you think it is. Searching for it, now _that_’s what it’s all about. As long as there’s a curious guy out there, poring over his experimental results and going “that’s odd…” or “that can’t be right…”, and of course jumping to “I wonder what’s going on here !” immediately after ; I and the human condition will be just fine. The moment you stop looking for new and interesting puzzles to solve, new knowledge to greedily acquire, even new answers for old questions : that moment right there, when (to sort-of quote Umberto Eco) there is no more invention but only an endless recapitulation, is the death of all hope. But that’s just me 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/172 "2013-10-09T14:35:15Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Faith keeps the “can’t do” attitude at bay so you can get there in time. Can we all just agree that you should end each sentence, like the one quoted, with a “- for me.” Because no matter how tantalizingly close we get to the sublime, you instinctively punt it into the ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/173 "2013-10-09T15:22:10Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > I know where I’m (we’re) ultimately heading. As to the details of the the journey and how long it will take I won’t speculate. > > Aloha Excellent! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/174 "2013-10-09T15:28:53Z")
Vague and vaguer. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/175 "2013-10-09T15:35:10Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > It has precious little to do with hope. How can I put this… > > OK, you remember the _X-Files_ ? Did you ever watch that show ? I did, when I was a teenager, I was a huge fan. And one of the things about that show was that there was this big, shadowy, convoluted, complex “Hidden Truth” that carried what was later called the mythology of the show. But they would never just tell you that Hidden Truth, it was hardly ever explained or even expo-speak’d about ; instead once in a while there’d be myth-related episodes where the heroes found out a little piece of it here, little piece there, gradually building up to Something. It went on a long time like that. > And then… and then eventually they ran out of pieces to come up with, the show was turning to crap anyway, so they wrapped up the Hidden Truth, told all of it, tied everything with one neat bow and filmed that. > > And in the end, the “big truth” was utterly unsatisfying. It left every viewer saying “8 years I’ve been watching this show for \*this \*?”. Lots of hate for the show. But what we forgot was that those 8 years before the Big Reveal had been thoroughly enjoyable. Just looking at what little bits of the “big truth” we did have, trying to make them fit, spouting theories about what the next reveal would be - that had been _fun_. Tremendous, tremendous fun. > Knowing how it all fit together, however, was meaningless. Like skipping to the end of a whodunit : when it’s all said and done, what do you care who killed Pamela Rose ? The point of the book is to try and find it out, not \*know \*it. > > The great thing about the truth is not the truth. > The truth is almost always disappointing, even when you’re not even wrong about what you think it is. Searching for it, now _that_’s what it’s all about. As long as there’s a curious guy out there, poring over his experimental results and going “that’s odd…” or “that can’t be right…”, and of course jumping to “I wonder what’s going on here !” immediately after ; I and the human condition will be just fine. The moment you stop looking for new and interesting puzzles to solve, new knowledge to greedily acquire, even new answers for old questions : that moment right there, when (to sort-of quote Umberto Eco) there is no more invention but only an endless recapitulation, is the death of all hope. > > But that’s just me 🙂 I enjoyed your post. But I know the truth and it is not disappointing at all. I know where I am going and it is far beyond a TV series truth. Like **jsutter** I am not sure of all the things that may happen along the way. I can’t predict how the next few years of my life will unfold, but I know how my journey through the physical will end. It will only continue on into the spiritual world with no disappointments. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/176 "2013-10-09T15:37:05Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Can we all just agree that you should end each sentence, like the one quoted, with a “- for me.” > > Because no matter how tantalizingly close we get to the sublime, you instinctively punt it into the ridiculous. for you. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/177 "2013-10-09T15:46:24Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > for you. Yeah… not just me. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/178 "2013-10-09T16:53:17Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > for you. nope - not just him. You believe ‘your world view’ - you put a lot of faith in it - but it is not - verifiable (if it was, faith would not be required) - while others have similar world views, it is by no means a ‘mainstream’ view. It works ‘for you’ - it does not work for ‘everyone’ - and no matter how much you believe otherwise - that does not make it ‘so’. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/179 "2013-10-09T17:13:32Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Yeah… not just me. The only one you have a right to speak for is yourself. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270/180 "2013-10-09T17:19:00Z")
> [@simster](#): > > nope - not just him. > > You believe ‘your world view’ - you put a lot of faith in it - but it is not - verifiable (if it was, faith would not be required) - while others have similar world views, it is by no means a ‘mainstream’ view. > > It works ‘for you’ - it does not work for ‘everyone’ - and no matter how much you believe otherwise - that does not make it ‘so’. I have said before I don’t need faith, I have a knowing, I have experience. Now I don’t need to push others to believe as I do. Each one may believe as He/She sees fit. But for me it is a surety. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-faith/667270.md?page=10)