# The Concept of Just War **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2014, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935 "2014-08-06T10:51:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/1 "2014-08-06T10:51:34Z")
The situation in Gaza has led to much discussion over whether either side are engaging in a Just War or whether either is committing potential war crimes by ignoring International Law. A recent resignation by a UK minister in the coalition government is putting increasing pressure on David Cameron to accuse Israel of lack of proportionality. In previous discussions several peel have suggested that proportionality is not required, but my reading suggests that the concept is part of the concept of Just War. My reading of the background to the subject makes me believe that both sides have engaged in war crimes and have ignored concepts of Just War. What is the concept of Just War? What is it based on? Are the current combatants engaged in a Just War? Can we do this without sniping about bias and anti- Semitism, please? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/2 "2014-08-06T13:44:26Z")
[According to the Catholic church](http://www.catholic.com/documents/just-war-doctrine), here are the conditions: > [@](#): > > The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time: > [ul] > [li]the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;[/li][li]all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;[/li][li]there must be serious prospects of success;[/li][li]the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.[/li][/ul] > These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good. So by those conditions, it sounds like neither Israel nor the Gazans meet the criteria. Israelis: damage sustained isn’t lasting, grave or certain. All other means haven’t been exhausted, and the use of arms seems to be producing evils and disorders greater than the evil to be eliminated. Gazans: All other means haven’t been exhausted, no serious prospects of success, and the use of arms is producing evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/3 "2014-08-06T14:19:57Z")
> [@](#): > > The situation in Gaza has led to much discussion over whether either side are engaging in a Just War or whether either is committing potential war crimes by ignoring International Law. Funny, I haven’t seen much discussion about either side committing war crimes. Specifically, what war crimes (from what legal body) is either Israel or (presumably) Hamas potentially guilty of? > [@](#): > > A recent resignation by a UK minister in the coalition government is putting increasing pressure on David Cameron to accuse Israel of lack of proportionality. Oh, that would be a shame if the UK accused Israel of a lack of proportionality! Though I’m not holding my breath that such an accusation is forthcoming. > [@](#): > > In previous discussions several peel have suggested that proportionality is not required, but my reading suggests that the concept is part of the concept of Just War In the previous discussion I skimmed it seemed to me you weren’t grasping what ‘proportionality’ actually means wrt war. Here is the European Law (since that seems to be the only thing you acknowledge as being valid) from [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_%28law%29): > [@](#): > > European Union law > See also: European Union law > > In European Union law there generally acknowledged to be four stages to a proportionality test, namely,[3] > > ``` > there must be a legitimate aim for a measure > the measure must be suitable to achieve the aim (potentially with a requirement of evidence to show it will have that effect) > the measure must be necessary to achieve the aim, that there cannot be any less onerous way of doing it > the measure must be reasonable, considering the competing interests of different groups at hand > > ``` > > It is, however, often seen that the third and fourth criterion are often merged into one by the European Court of Justice, depending on the margin of discretion that the Court sees as being afforded to the member state. Examples are found in R (Seymour-Smith) v Secretary of State for Employment, where the ECJ points out that a member state has some discretion in the policies it pursues, surrounding unfair dismissal, in reducing unemployment. Further examples of the proportionality test are seen in Mangold v Helm and Kücükdeveci v Swedex GmbH & Co KG. I’m not a lawyer nor do I play one on the SDMB, but you could parse the above to justify the actions of either party in this. there must be a legitimate aim for a measure: Both Israel and Hamas have ‘legitimate’ aims for what they are doing. Israel wants to stop the rocket attacks. Hamas wants to destroy Israel, drum up international support and sympathy and eventually control all the lands in the region they consider Palestinian. the measure must be suitable to achieve the aim (potentially with a requirement of evidence to show it will have that effect): Both feel that what they are doing will lead to achieving their goal. the measure must be necessary to achieve the aim, that there cannot be any less onerous way of doing it: Both feel that this is the way to achieve their goals of either stopping rocket attacks or destroying the other and gaining international support. the measure must be reasonable, considering the competing interests of different groups at hand: Reasonable to who? Who decides what is or isn’t reasonable? Both of these groups feel their actions are ‘reasonable’, whatever that actually means. > [@](#): > > What is the concept of Just War? What is it based on? Are the current combatants engaged in a Just War? [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory) on Just War. > [@](#): > > Just war theory (jus bellum iustum) is a doctrine, also referred to as a tradition, of military ethics studied by theologians, ethicists, policy makers and military leaders. The purpose of the doctrine is to ensure war is morally justifiable through a series of criteria, all of which must be met for a war to be considered just. The criteria are split into two groups: "the right to go to war’’ (jus ad bellum) and ‘‘right conduct in war’’ (jus in bello). The first concerns the morality of going to war and the second with moral conduct within war.[1] Recently there have been calls for the inclusion of a third category of just war theory - jus post bellum - dealing with the morality of post-war settlement and reconstruction. > > Just War theory postulates that war, while very terrible, is not always the worst option. There may be responsibilities so important, atrocities which can be prevented or outcomes so undesirable they justify war.[2] The thing is, again, either or both sides DO feel the war is ‘just’ and that what they are doing is what they need to do to achieve their aims. Even if others disagree. And regardless, in Israel’s case they don’t have much choice…they aren’t the ones firing the rockets and they aren’t the ones doing so deliberately so as to necessitate lots of civilian casualties by placing the batteries in heavily populated civilian areas. From Hamas perspective, they don’t have a lot of choices but to do so, since peace is obviously out of the question for them. They NEED to have Israel perpetrate atrocities so as to spark a reaction in the more militant factions of their neighbors if they are to gain more support for the war they want to wage. > [@](#): > > Can we do this without sniping about bias and anti- Semitism, please? I guess we shall see. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/4 "2014-08-06T14:53:52Z")
Well on one side you’ve got a people being oppressed, made to suffer indignity after indignity and violence, being forcibly and illegally removed from their homes, treated as second class citizens at best, killed for no reason at worst. And on the other side you’ve got Israel who kills tens of thousands of men, woman and children in retaliation for home made rocket attacks from the aforementioned oppressed people. If I was the man I read about the other day, the one holding a bag of meat, which used to be his son, I’m pretty sure I’d be fighting the thugs that did that tooth and nail, and rockets if I were given the chance. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/5 "2014-08-06T14:55:33Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Well on one side you’ve got a people being oppressed, made to suffer indignity after indignity and violence, being forcibly and illegally removed from their homes, treated as second class citizens at best, killed for no reason at worst. > > And on the other side you’ve got Israel who kills tens of thousands of men, woman and children in retaliation for home made rocket attacks from the aforementioned oppressed people. > > If I was the man I read about the other day, the one holding a bag of meat, which used to be his son, I’m pretty sure I’d be fighting the thugs that did that tooth and nail, and rockets if I were given the chance. [QUOTE=Pjen] Can we do this without sniping about bias and anti- Semitism, please? [/QUOTE] So, that would be a ‘no’. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/6 "2014-08-06T14:56:17Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Can we do this without sniping about bias and anti- Semitism, please? Depends. Does Anti-Semetism = the mere act of being critical of Israel, as it appears to be in so many of these threads? ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/7 "2014-08-06T14:57:19Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So, that would be a ‘no’. And that’s an affirmative, I guess. There’s only one side in this conflict that could wage a" just" war. Unfortunately it’s leaders continue to squander that moral high ground by targeting civilians purposefully. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/8 "2014-08-06T15:05:11Z")
The Christian theory of the just war is a…well Christian theory. Why would you assume that the concepts would even apply to states which are primarily run by non christian Abrahamic faiths? I see no reason why Islamic and Jewish states will hold the writings of Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas as an ultimate authority on morality. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/9 "2014-08-06T15:19:35Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > There’s only one side in this conflict that could wage a" just" war. Unfortunately it’s leaders continue to squander that moral high ground by targeting civilians purposefully. For the record, which side are you talking about here? Because to be honest, I’d say the side that started shooting rockets at the other side is the side that was abandoned the moral high ground. I frankly don’t understand the people that are apparently saying that Israel should just let Palestine fire rockets at it and not fight back. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/10 "2014-08-06T15:23:05Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Can we do this without sniping about bias and anti- Semitism, please? Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/11 "2014-08-06T15:36:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > For the record, which side are you talking about here? > > Because to be honest, I’d say the side that started shooting rockets at the other side is the side that was abandoned the moral high ground. I frankly don’t understand the people that are apparently saying that Israel should just let Palestine fire rockets at it and not fight back. I was talking about the Palestinians. I think Hamas firing rockets at military targets, rather than bombing buses would have gotten them more world wide support, and in my mind, would have been a “just war” if there’s ever been one given their treatment by Israel. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/12 "2014-08-06T15:49:20Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > I was talking about the Palestinians. > > I think Hamas firing rockets at military targets, rather than bombing buses would have gotten them more world wide support, and in my mind, would have been a “just war” if there’s ever been one given their treatment by Israel. What makes you think they are firing “at military targets”? ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/13 "2014-08-06T15:57:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What makes you think they are firing “at military targets”? Re-read for better comprehension. My point is that they AREN’T doing so, which hurts them in the world arena AND IMHO has an effect on whether their war is “just” or not. The oppressed have a right to fight for their rights/freedom. Sometimes when you are the underdog, you have to fight dirty, other times you have to fight smartly. Hamas attacking Israeli military targets would equal many dead Hamas fighters and probably only a handful of successful attacks. But they can’t win the day against a modern military, they NEED the world to be on their side. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/14 "2014-08-06T16:00:55Z")
[QUOTE=Kinthalis] There’s only one side in this conflict that could wage a" just" war. Unfortunately it’s leaders continue to squander that moral high ground by targeting civilians purposefully. [/QUOTE] Actually it appears to be Hamas who are targetting civilians purposefully. They are firing rockets at Israeli civilians, and putting their rocket launchers amid human shields, thus targetting Palestinian civilians. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/15 "2014-08-06T16:01:39Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Re-read for better comprehension. My point is that they AREN’T doing so, which hurts them in the world arena AND IMHO has an effect on whether their war is “just” or not. Re-write for better communication. It was not at all clear what you were trying to say. Note that one poster already couldn’t figure out what you were talking about. ETA: And now we are 3. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/16 "2014-08-06T16:01:46Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The Christian theory of the just war is a…well Christian theory. Why would you assume that the concepts would even apply to states which are primarily run by non christian Abrahamic faiths? > > I see no reason why Islamic and Jewish states will hold the writings of Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas as an ultimate authority on morality. “Just war” theory was originally a product of Christian theology, but has since become imbedded in general non-sectarian philosophizing about international law. Not that international law as a concept isn’t problematic in its own right … but not, I think, on sectarian grounds. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/17 "2014-08-06T16:03:06Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Depends. Does Anti-Semetism = the mere act of being critical of Israel, as it appears to be in so many of these threads? I see this accusation made about two orders of magnitude more frequently than I see actual accusations of anti-Semitism. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/18 "2014-08-06T16:04:55Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I see this accusation made about two orders of magnitude more frequently than I see actual accusations of anti-Semitism. Well it’s 1 to 1 in this thread. Let’s see how it pans out. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/19 "2014-08-06T16:05:18Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Depends. Does Anti-Semetism = the mere act of being critical of Israel, as it appears to be in so many of these threads? The OP also mentioned “bias”. Why jump on only the one train when there are two? Notwithstanding that the idea of a thread where everyone avoids “bias” is impossible to imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935/20 "2014-08-06T16:07:37Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Well it’s 1 to 1 in this thread. Let’s see how it pans out. Who has accused anyone of anti-Semitism? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-concept-of-just-war/694935.md?page=2)