# The Confederate Flag in schools...

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-confederate-flag-in-schools/77897>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [August 24, 2001, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-confederate-flag-in-schools/77897 "2001-08-24T13:28:28Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 12\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\
**Post date:** [August 25, 2001, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-confederate-flag-in-schools/77897/21 "2001-08-25T04:18:25Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> Oh, yeah, sure! You’re trying SO HARD to understand! So tell me, what exactly do you think I’m trying to say here? It seems to me all I’m trying to say is that Southern kids shouldn’t be prohibited from wearing T-shirts, caps and jackets or from carrying bookbags and knapsacks with a Confederate battle flag to public schools unless compelling evidence can be supplied which shows that the display of such emblems is likely to result in immediate, massive violence. So tell me. What am I really saying? You know my own mind such much better than I do.
> 
> Exactly what is it about a T-shirt with a rebel flag on it which horrifies you so much? Why do you feel so threatened by the sight of a fifth grader with a book bag that has the Saint Andrews cross on it wearing a T-shirt adorned with Robert E. Lee’s picture? Are you really such a weakling that such visions as this reduce you to helpless terror? Are you so horrified by such a sight? Are you really so frightened by me and my people that you absolutely cannot stand to see such a thing in a public school? Why do we terrify you so much? Are we really such ogres?
> 
> Do you really hate us that much? Are we really that frightening to you? Do you really mean to say that we reduce you to such helpless paroxyms of terror that you must use the power of the State to keep us from sending our ten year old children to school with a lunch box that has a rebel flag on it? Are we really such monsters? Did we really come so close to winning the war that a hundred and thirty six years later our flag still makes you shit your pants?
> 
> Do we really scare you that much?
> 
> Are we never to be regarded as your brothers in a constitutional republic, or are we always to be cast in the outermost darkness as trash unfit to share the common light of day with you?
> 
> Do you really hate and fear us that much? Do you really hate and fear us so much that our children must not be allowed to wear T-shirts displaying the cross of Saint Andrews when they attend a public school?
> 
> Are we really that much of a danger to you?
> 
> Are we really that much of a danger to anybody?
> 
> Why do you hate us?

First of all, i don’t hate you individually or you (white southerners) collectively. If you really got that from my post, then i am very sorry.

But is it really so hard to read what i wrote? That is:

> [@](#):
>
> Personally, as i said in another post, i **disagree** with the censorship of the Confederate Flag.

Nor do i dismiss out of hand the desire of some white southerners to wear this symbol. If you will re-read my last post you will see that just about every point i made was directed at the fact that **you** (as an individual - not white southerners in general) seem unwilling to make any compromise, to meet halfway the people who disagree with your views.

The OP on this thread indicates that there are people **in the southern community** who oppose the use of the Confederate Flag, yet you have shown no willingness to adjust your position in deference to their views. After all, they’re the people you have to live with, and i would have thought that harmony within your community would be in your own best interest. I’m not saying that you need to agree with all my views; i’m just surprised that you seem so hostile even to the idea of changing your own.

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**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\
**Post date:** [August 25, 2001, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-confederate-flag-in-schools/77897/22 "2001-08-25T04:30:53Z")

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Apart from the flag, what about related imagery?

Should the makers of [this product](http://www.imperialsugar.com/Dixie_Crystals/index_main.htm) change its logo?

I’m getting a little queasy about putting it in my morning coffee…😉

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**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\
**Post date:** [August 25, 2001, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-confederate-flag-in-schools/77897/23 "2001-08-25T04:31:22Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Whack-a-Mole \*  
> **You need to remember that first amendment freedom of speech is not limitless. The government cannot outright outlaw Confederate Flags or swasticas or most anything else of this nature. The government _can_ ban such things from their property however.**

No, it cannot. If the government cannot arrest someone for wearing a jacket saying “Fuck You” in a public building (which they cannot, I believe the case is Chaplinksy v. California, but I may be wrong), they cannot ban “offensive content” from public places. I can legally walk into a public (that is, government-owned) place anywhere in the United States and proudly display whatever non-obscene offensive material I want as long as in doing so I do not precipitate an immediate breach of the peace, threaten the safety of others, or violate any other law not specifically targeted at expressive conduct.

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**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\
**Post date:** [August 25, 2001, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-confederate-flag-in-schools/77897/24 "2001-08-25T04:48:52Z")

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In [_Chaplinksy v. New Hampshire_ (1942)](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&court=US&case=/us/315/568.html) the Supreme Court _upheld_ the conviction of a man under a statute which said

> [@](#):
>
> No person shall address any offensive, derisive or annoying word to any other person who is lawfully in any street or other public place, nor call him by any offensive or derisive name, nor make any noise or exclamation in his presence and hearing with intent to deride, offend or annoy him, or to prevent him from pursuing his lawful business or occupation.

after the defendant (on a public sidewalk outside City Hall, not actually inside a public building) said to the town marshal “You are a God damned racketeer” and “a damned Fascist and the whole government of Rochester are Fascists or agents of Fascists”.

Perhaps you were thinking of some other case, but that’s the only Supreme Court case with “Chaplinsky” in the title which I could find (I didn’t see any circuit court judgements of that description either).

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**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\
**Post date:** [August 25, 2001, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-confederate-flag-in-schools/77897/25 "2001-08-25T04:54:38Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \*  
> \*\*Perhaps you were thinking of some other case, but that’s the only Supreme Court case with “Chaplinsky” in the title which I could find (I didn’t see any circuit court judgements of that description either). \*\*

Yeah, obviously the wrong case. My memory ain’t what it used to be, and I haven’t seen my con law casebook since I moved. The case I meant was [_Cohen v. California_, 403 U.S. 15 (1971)](http://laws.findlaw.com/us/403/15.html), which happens to cite _Chaplinsky_.

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**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\
**Post date:** [August 25, 2001, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-confederate-flag-in-schools/77897/26 "2001-08-25T04:56:56Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \*
> 
> > [@](#):
> >
> > The recently changed flag of Georgia was adopted in 1954. And AFAIK was the first governmental display which included the CBF.
> 
> Actually the [Mississippi state flag](http://www.fotw.ca/flags/us-ms.html) was first adopted in [1894](http://www.its.state.ms.us/et/portal/MSSymbols/symbols.htm).

You of course are right. Interestingly enough the site I used to research Mississipi’s did not have a picture of the 1894 flag. And the description defined it as derivitive of the US Flag not the CBF. It did have pictures acompanying the descriptions dating the various changes since 1894. I thought the clarifications detailing the various parts were actually detailing actual changes instead. My appologies.

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**Author:** ![panzermanpanzerman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9bcb4/32.png) [@panzermanpanzerman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panzermanpanzerman)\
**Post date:** [August 25, 2001, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-confederate-flag-in-schools/77897/27 "2001-08-25T18:53:52Z")

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I’m surprised no one has brought up the most direct precedent I can think of: Tinker v. Des Moines (1969).

A couple of Jehovah’s Witness kids John Tinker and Christopher Eckhardt (15 and 16 at the time) decided they’d wear black armbands to a public school in protest of the Viet Nam war.

The school district saw fit to suspend them. The kids filed suit on first amendment grounds, and the case went all the way to the Supreme Court.

Some excerpts from Justice Fortas’ opinion follow.

\<\<First Amendment rights, applied in light of the special characteristics of the school environment, are available to teachers and students. It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate. This has been the unmistakable holding of this Court for almost 50 years. \>\>

\<\<In West Virginia v. Barnette, supra, this Court held that under the First Amendment, the student in public school may not be compelled to salute the flag. Speaking through Mr. Justice Jackson, the Court said:  
“The Fourteenth Amendment, as now applied to the States, protects the citizen against the State itself and all of its creatures - Boards of Education not excepted. These have, of course, important, delicate, and highly discretionary functions, but none that they may not perform within the limits of the Bill of Rights. That they are educating the young for citizenship is reason for scrupulous protection of Constitutional freedoms of the individual, if we are not to strangle the free mind at its source and teach youth to discount important principles of our government as mere platitudes.” 319 U.S., at 637 . \>\>  
\<\<The District Court concluded that the action of the school authorities was reasonable because it was based upon their fear of a disturbance from the wearing of the armbands. But, in our system, undifferentiated fear or apprehension of disturbance is not enough to overcome the right to freedom of expression. Any departure from absolute regimentation may cause trouble. Any variation from the majority’s opinion may inspire fear. Any word spoken, in class, in the lunchroom, or on the campus, that deviates from the views of another person may start an argument or cause a disturbance. But our Constitution says we must take this risk, Terminiello v. Chicago, 337 U.S. 1 (1949); and our history says that it is this sort of hazardous freedom - this kind of openness - that is [393 U.S. 503, 509] the basis of our national strength and of the independence and vigor of Americans who grow up and live in this relatively permissive, often disputatious, society.\>\>

\<\< In order for the State in the person of school officials to justify prohibition of a particular expression of opinion, it must be able to show that its action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint. Certainly where there is no finding and no showing that engaging in the forbidden conduct would “materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school,” the prohibition cannot be sustained. Burnside v. Byars, supra, at 749.\>\>

\<\<It is also relevant that the school authorities did not purport to prohibit the wearing of all symbols of political or controversial significance. The record shows that students in some of the schools wore buttons relating to national political campaigns, and some even wore the Iron Cross, traditionally a symbol of Nazism. The order prohibiting the wearing of armbands did not extend to these. Instead, a particular symbol - black armbands worn to exhibit opposition to this Nation’s involvement [393 U.S. 503, 511] in Vietnam - was singled out for prohibition. Clearly, the prohibition of expression of one particular opinion, at least without evidence that it is necessary to avoid material and substantial interference with schoolwork or discipline, is not constitutionally permissible. \>\>

\<\<They caused discussion outside of the classrooms, but no interference with work and no disorder. In the circumstances, our Constitution does not permit officials of the State to deny their form of expression. \>\>\>  
…so it seems as though these school officials clearly stepped on their collective dicks, from a constitutional point of view.

While I’m sensitive to the feelings of minorities on the matter, my first adherance and loyalty is to the constitution of the U.S.

I think case law pretty clearly upholds the right of these kids to express support for the CBF.

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**Author:** ![panzermanpanzerman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9bcb4/32.png) [@panzermanpanzerman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panzermanpanzerman)\
**Post date:** [August 25, 2001, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-confederate-flag-in-schools/77897/28 "2001-08-25T18:54:56Z")

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…in other words, “IT’S EXPRESSION, STUPID. DEAL WITH IT!”

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**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\
**Post date:** [August 25, 2001, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-confederate-flag-in-schools/77897/29 "2001-08-25T19:07:40Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by panzermanpanzerman \*  
> \*\*I’m surprised no one has brought up the most direct precedent I can think of: Tinker v. Des Moines (1969). […]  
> I think case law pretty clearly upholds the right of these kids to express support for the CBF. \*\*

_Tinker_ has pretty much fallen by the wayside. While I don’t believe the Court has ever explicitly said that _Tinker_ is no longer good law, there is a huge line of well-established caselaw that has largely eviscerated the holding of _Tinker_. At this point, all _Tinker_ still protects is overtly political speech. If the school district can come up with **any** excuse how restricting speech will benefit the educational process, the restriction will stand.

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**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\
**Post date:** [August 25, 2001, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-confederate-flag-in-schools/77897/30 "2001-08-25T20:47:08Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> **From _Chicago Sun-Times_, 26 March, 1998, p.23**
> 
> DATELINE: EVANS, Georgia.
> 
> A high school student was suspended for wearing a Pepsi T-shirt on Coke Day. Greenbrier High School officials said Mike Cameron’s shirt was an insult to visiting Coca-Cola executives.
> 
> Cameron said it was just a joke.
> 
> Friday’s Coke in Education Day was part of Greenbrier’s effort to win a 500 local contest run by the Coca-Cola Bottling Co. of Augusta and a national contest with a 10,000 prize.
> 
> Cameron wore a blue-and-white-striped T-shirt with a small Pepsi logo underneath another shirt. He waited until just before the picture was taken to remove his outer shirt, principal Gloria Hamilton said.
> 
> **From _Atlanta Journal and Constitution_, 26 March 1998, p. 6F**
> 
> The Coca-Cola-themed day, staged Friday, was part of Greenbrier High School’s effort to win a contest run by the Augusta Coca-Cola bottler, a partner in education of the Columbia County school district. The bottler is offering $500 to the school with the best way of distributing promotional cards offering business discounts to students. The school decided to invite Coca-Cola executives as guest speakers. The student body gathered outside to spell “Coke” for a photo.
> 
> Principal Gloria Hamilton said Cameron “disrupted” the picture-taking episode by wearing the Pepsi shirt and showed disrespect for the visiting Coke executives. She ordered a one-day, in-school suspension, which Cameron appealed. When he lost the appeal, he opted to take an in-home suspension, said his 22-year-old brother, Ian.

Does anyone know if this incident has been the subject of a court case? I couldn’t find any references to one on the Lexis/Nexis search that i conducted.

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**Author:** ![Evnglion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f04885/32.png) [@Evnglion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evnglion)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2001, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-confederate-flag-in-schools/77897/31 "2001-08-27T14:01:57Z")

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There are several new developments in this issue, since the weekend has come and gone. It turns out that another similar case has come about. As part of the new dress code, the very vague rule, “Offensive Clothing may not be worn”, has brought several problems with it. I will go ahead and say that I am a Christian, and I do not agree witht his particular students views, but I am opposed to the way it was handled. A female student here was asked to remove her pentagram neckless because it was offensive. When something is “offensive”, it is completely in the “eye of the beholder”, so to say. So, this student requested that all Christians removed the crosses from around their necks, because they are offensive. This creates some problems.

About the flag issue… the kids who have been wearing the flags are now, get this, putting the flags in the clear sleeves on 3-ring binders. They are displayed just as proudly as if they were on a hat, AND they are allowd in the school. The suspension as been appealed, although nothing has come of that yet, and I have a feeling it will be burried in paperwork for so long that the 10 days will pass, and nothing come of the appeal.

> [@](#):
>
> _Whack-a-mole_  
> The government can ban such things from their property however. This is what your school has done and it is perfectly within its rights to do so.

This is something that I have not takn into consideration. It is also perfectly understandable, and I can see an arguement from both sides. If the government can do this, then how do you explain the Tinker Case (1969???) when a school system banned the peace symbol (it was offensive to families taht had members in Vietnam), and the students took it all they way to Supreme court, and won?

> [@](#):
>
> _mhendo_  
> In some parts of the south, the wearing of bedsheets and white hoods is also a part of ‘tradition’; i suppose you’re going to suggest they adopt that as school uniform now?

I was never saying that I thought that the Confederate flag should be acceptable, and I do not support it. I was merely stating that I do believe that it shouldn’t be able to be banned because it is deemed offensive. I do find it offensive, and I think it is morally wrong, but that doesn’t mean everyone else does. If the confederate flag is banned for this reason, then what is going to keep me from wearing a WWII japanese t-shirt? Or maybe even the american flag, I could understand someone finding it offensive.

> [@](#):
>
> ## _mhendo_ quote:
> 
> ## I know many people view the Confederate as a “symbol of hate.”
> 
> but you have yet to show any respect for people who might have this view, instead chosing to do nothing but rant about ‘rights’.

Again, that is NOT what this is about. I have a great deal of respect, and I am sure the vast majority of the people here do, including **LonesomePolecat**. But as with any rule, there has to be some sort of limit to it. If the school system is free to ban the flag, without any signs of true offensiveness, then their options are limitless. Like someone said earlier, the darwin fish found on cars, yes, it is a direct attack to the Christian belief system, but no, it should not be banned. The flag is the same case. Yes, it is a direct attack to the US government, and the anti-slavery laws we have in place. No, it should NOT be banned because of this. There is no cruder form of hate than what we find in racism, but if we can not prove that people are using this symbol as a way to offend, it can’t be banned. Like i said, offensiveness, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

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**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\
**Post date:** [August 27, 2001, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-confederate-flag-in-schools/77897/32 "2001-08-27T17:07:19Z")

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**To evnglion:**  
[/quote]  
**You wrote:**

> [@](#):
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > mhendo  
> > In some parts of the south, the wearing of bedsheets and white hoods is also a part of ‘tradition’; i suppose you’re going to suggest they adopt that as school uniform now?
> 
> I was never saying that I thought that the Confederate flag should be acceptable, and I do not support it. I was merely stating that I do believe that it shouldn’t be able to be banned because it is deemed offensive. I do find it offensive, and I think it is morally wrong, but that doesn’t mean everyone else does. If the confederate flag is banned for this reason, then what is going to keep me from wearing a WWII japanese t-shirt? Or maybe even the american flag, I could understand someone finding it offensive.
> 
> > [@](#):
> >
> > mhendo  
> > I know many people view the Confederate as a “symbol of hate.”
> > 
> > > [@](#):
> > >
> > > but you have yet to show any respect for people who might have this view, instead chosing to do nothing but rant about ‘rights’.
> 
> Again, that is NOT what this is about. I have a great deal of respect, and I am sure the vast majority of the people here do, including LonesomePolecat. But as with any rule, there has to be some sort of limit to it. If the school system is free to ban the flag, without any signs of true offensiveness, then their options are limitless. Like someone said earlier, the darwin fish found on cars, yes, it is a direct attack to the Christian belief system, but no, it should not be banned. The flag is the same case. Yes, it is a direct attack to the US government, and the anti-slavery laws we have in place. No, it should NOT be banned because of this. There is no cruder form of hate than what we find in racism, but if we can not prove that people are using this symbol as a way to offend, it can’t be banned. Like i said, offensiveness, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

To **evnglion** , i know that **you** never said that you supported the flag. We both find it offensive. Nor do **i** believe that it should be banned or censored. We both seem to agree on that also. So your last paragraph lecturing me about the undesirability of banning the flag is redundant. As i explained to **Lonesome Polecat** , i was not taking issue with “white southerners” as some undifferentiated group who all think the same way, i was taking issue with **his** apparent lack of empathy for those who might be offended by the flag. The fact that a person wearing the flag does not intend any offense does not mean that someone seeing it will not take offense. Now, again, i don’t think that is adequate reason to ban it, but i think that everyone needs to realise that messages can sometimes lose something in the communication, which can lead to misunderstanding and possibly undesirable consequences.

I’m sorry to hear that the issue also seems to be leading to a whole lot of tit-for-tat accusations of offensiveness in your school. As stated in a previous post, i’m an atheist, but i’m also a firm believer in freedom of religion as well as freedom of expression. If someone wants to adorn their whole body in crosses, pentagrams, Stars of David, or whatever, they should be allowed to do so. And the argument about church/state separation shouldn’t be valid here, as the issue is one of individuals chosing how to express their beliefs and values.

And i hope the suspension of those kids is overturned.

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