# The Conflict between Conservative "Facts" and Reality **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 8, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300 "2012-11-08T00:04:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/21 "2012-11-08T03:27:45Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I don’t think the Republicans were thinking that the polls were showing too-much support for Romney. You seem to have lost track of the exchange. RickJay said that in 2004 Democrats insisted Kerry was going to win, in defiance of what the polls were saying all along, similar to Republicans this cycle. You responded that “in 2004 there weren’t any memes about “oversampling” or alternate guys who just altered the polls to make them more comfortable”. And I responded that in 2004 there was just this type of reasoning from liberals and Democrats. And the example that I remember offhand was the notion, pushed by liberals and Democrats in 2004, that the polls were skewed in favor of Republicans because they were undersampling cell phone users. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/22 "2012-11-08T03:42:00Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You seem to have lost track of the exchange. > > RickJay said that in 2004 Democrats insisted Kerry was going to win, in defiance of what the polls were saying all along, similar to Republicans this cycle. You responded that “in 2004 there weren’t any memes about “oversampling” or alternate guys who just altered the polls to make them more comfortable”. And I responded that in 2004 there was just this type of reasoning from liberals and Democrats. And the example that I remember offhand was the notion, pushed by liberals and Democrats in 2004, that the polls were skewed in favor of Republicans because they were undersampling cell phone users. Ah, I thought you were talking about now, this last election. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/23 "2012-11-08T03:52:03Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > During the election American Conservatives had a set of alternate beliefs about the validity of polling. Last night, that set of beliefs came up against the hard edge of reality and appeared to shock some conservatives to the core. > > Is this an important moment that can be used to wedge against the library of alternate conservative facts? > > I guess what I’m asking is, Conservative posters, since you were lied to by your media about the polling on the election, does it open up the possibility in your mind that they perhaps have been lying and misleading you about other things? > > Does it render more acceptable the idea that maybe Climate Change might be real, or that maybe Benghazi-gate is hysterics, or perhaps that Universal Health Care works very well in other countries? Being wrong on one issue does not preclude you from being right on another. I’m not sure what the point of your post is, to be rather honest. Liberals thought the polls were wrong in 2004. Does them being wrong on that issue invalidate the rest of their beliefs? Well, according to your post, it would. AGW is a scam (I find it ironic that Gore flies around the country in his private jet while warning of the dangers of fossil fuels), Benghazi is, was and forever will be a big deal, and whether or not UHC works in other countries (debatable) is not indicative of whether or not it will work in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/24 "2012-11-08T03:55:01Z")
OMG, I hope you and all hardcore conservatives maintain those beliefs and stick to your guns on them, forever. For the sake of our country! ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/25 "2012-11-08T04:13:17Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > OMG, I hope you and all hardcore conservatives maintain those beliefs and stick to your guns on them, forever. For the sake of our country! For the sake of the country, I will have to. Otherwise, we might end up like California 😛 ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/26 "2012-11-08T04:15:09Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > For the sake of the country, I will have to. Otherwise, we might end up like California 😛 Ok, you got me on that one. I hate California too. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/27 "2012-11-08T04:15:43Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > OMG, I hope you and all hardcore conservatives maintain those beliefs and stick to your guns on them, forever. For the sake of our country! You’re talking big because your guys just won a big election. But if OMG and the other hardcore conservatives win an election or two, which has happened in our lifetimes as you may recall, and the guys they elect - or even the guys they’ve already elected, currently controlling the House of Representatives - act on these beliefs, in opposing action on AGW or UHC, something tells me you’ll be acting just a bit less triumphant. In fact, I could have sworn I’ve seen considerable wailing and moaning and gnashing of teeth about matters of this sort, on this very board, and from people who are very similar to you. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/28 "2012-11-08T04:25:27Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You’re talking big because your guys just won a big election. > > In fact, I could have sworn I’ve seen considerable wailing and moaning and gnashing of teeth about matters of this sort, on this very board, and from people who are very similar to you. You don’t even know me. But if you’re interested, let me introduce myself. My name is Drew. I turned 18 in 2004 in time for the election. I registered unaffiliated because I saw good and bad in both parties. I was a moderate, and I was certainly not a Bush hater. I ended up splitting my ticket equally between republicans and democrats. When Bush won, I didn’t think it was all doom and gloom. And in fact, I think that history will remember him a little better than people do now. I think he acted very responsibly in several capacities. In 2006, I missed my chance to vote, but even then I was still a moderate. By 2008, I was pretty disenfranchised with how conservative the republicans had become, so I voted a straight democratic ticket, with an open mind to changing if I felt the republicans could represent how I felt. I just didn’t feel that there were any moderate republicans available. McCain was a decent and honorable man, but he went insane picking Palin in 2008. But honestly, he would have made a fine president and had he won, I would have been very hopeful and content. In 2010, I voted for some republicans again, some democrats. More D than R, but I am open minded. Now, in 2012, the only moderate republicans that exist are called democrats. I still consider myself a moderate, but now by definition that makes me a democrat. There is no room for people like me in the modern-day republican party. Romney was absolutely detestable to me in every way. He completely reversed from being a bi-partisan deal maker to being a tea party suck-up. It was laughably bad. He deserved to lose, even though Obama was a very vulnerable incumbent. So, that’s my story. I frankly hope that conservatives stick to their beliefs and they continue to marginalize themselves. If they do, moderate democrats will continue to win, and they will maintain the balance between liberal and conservative ideals. The republican party has betrayed people like me, and frankly, I hope they continue to do so until they learn their lesson. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/29 "2012-11-08T04:29:32Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > You don’t even know me. But if you’re interested, let me introduce myself. Not particularly, to be honest. I mean, nothing personal, and you’re probably a very fine guy and all, but I think my point stands. Which is, that you’re engaging in some trash talk. Which is fine. Your team just won big, so you get to swagger. Nonetheless, it’s worth pointing it out for what it is. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/30 "2012-11-08T04:32:42Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Not particularly, to be honest. I mean, nothing personal, and you’re probably a very fine guy and all, but I think my point stands. Which is, that you’re engaging in some trash talk. > > Which is fine. Your team just won big, so you get to swagger. Nonetheless, it’s worth pointing it out for what it is. Hmm. Seems like I overestimated you somewhat. You always seemed decent in the past in giving people you disagreed with a fair shake. Oh well. Obama is not “my guy”, by the way. I think he’s been a thoroughly mediocre president. I was happy to support him only because Romney was so fucking unbelievably awful, and that the republicans have gone bat-shit insane. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/31 "2012-11-08T04:34:05Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > The republican party has betrayed people like me, and frankly, I hope they continue to do so until they learn their lesson. Oddly enough, I find it to be exactly the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/32 "2012-11-08T04:36:09Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Hmm. Seems like I overestimated you somewhat. You always seemed decent in the past in giving people you disagreed with a fair shake. Oh well. Think of me what you will. “OMG, I hope you and all hardcore conservatives maintain those beliefs and stick to your guns on them, forever. For the sake of our country!” is trash talk. > [@](#): > > Obama is not “my guy”, by the way. I think he’s been a thoroughly mediocre president. I was happy to support him only because Romney was so fucking unbelievably awful, and that the republicans have gone bat-shit insane. No difference. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/33 "2012-11-08T05:24:56Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Oddly enough, I find it to be exactly the opposite. [Sarcasm] Yeah, no one put those ideas of those misleading polls and data into your head, those republican sources were only joking and you knew it all along. [/S] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/34 "2012-11-08T05:42:24Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > John Kerry won the election in 2004, but he decided he didn’t think the country could withstand another disputed national election after the Supreme Court chose Bush in 2000, so elected not to challenge Ohio to a recount. Well, I think that pretty much establishes what the OP was talking about wrt the conflict between conservative facts and reality. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/35 "2012-11-08T06:48:50Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Being wrong on one issue does not preclude you from being right on another. > > I’m not sure what the point of your post is, to be rather honest. Liberals thought the polls were wrong in 2004. They didn’t claim it was a conspiracy of conservative media though. That’s the difference. The silly conspiratorial beliefs that many conservatives share. > [@](#): > > Does them being wrong on that issue invalidate the rest of their beliefs? Well, according to your post, it would. Of course not. See above. > [@](#): > > AGW is a scam No it isn’t. You think it is because you are being lied to by news sources you trust. The vast majority of climate scientists on Earth agree Climate Change is happening and man is contributing. That’s a fact. Your position is one of those _alternate facts_ I was talking about. > [@](#): > > (I find it ironic that Gore flies around the country in his private jet while warning of the dangers of fossil fuels) You find it ironic because you don’t understand the actual argument. No one is saying we need to stop all fossil fuel consumption. But because of the lying conservative media you trust, you think that’s what is happening. > [@](#): > > , Benghazi is, was and forever will be a big deal, No it isn’t. It literally was simply an attack and there is no cover up. You think there is because you believe lying conservative media that is misleading you on the subject because they want to you vote a certain way. [http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202\_162-57544196/u.s-officials-counter-benghazi-attack-reports/](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57544196/u.s-officials-counter-benghazi-attack-reports/) > [@](#): > > and whether or not UHC works in other countries (debatable) is not indicative of whether or not it will work in the U.S. That is a reasonable argument. But you would need to explain why it won’t work here when it works everywhere else. Which you can’t. I know you believe these things strongly, but our society would be much better off if you and the countless like you weren’t enraged for no reason. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/36 "2012-11-08T10:03:55Z")
Rachel Maddow had kind of a powerful bit about this yesterday: > [@](#): > > \Ohio really did go to president Obama last night. > > And he really did win. > > And he really was born in Hawaii. > > And he really is legitimately President of the United States, again. > > And the Bureau of Labor Statistics did not make up a fake unemployment rate last month. > > And the congressional research service really can find no evidence that cutting taxes on rich people grows the economy. > > And the polls were not screwed to oversample democrats. > > And Nate Silver was not making up fake projections about the election to make conservatives feel bad. Nate Silver was doing math. > > And climate change is real. > > And rape really does cause pregnancy sometimes. > > And evolution is a thing. > > And Benghazi was an attack on us, it was not a scandal by us. > > And nobody is taking away anyone’s guns. > > And taxes have not gone up. > > And the deficit is dropping, actually. > > And Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction. > > And the moon landing was real. > > And FEMA is not building concentration camps. > > And UN election observers are not taking over Texas. > > And moderate reforms of the regulations on the insurance industry and the financial services industry in this country are not the same thing as communism. > > Listen, last night was a good night for liberals and for Democrats for very obvious reasons, but it was also, possibly, a good night for this country as a whole. Because in this country, we have a two-party system in government. And the idea is supposed to be that the two sides, both come up with ways to confront and fix the real problems facing our country. They both propose possible solutions to our real problems. And we debate between those possible solutions. And by the process of debate, we pick the best idea. That competition between good ideas from both sides about real problems in the real country should result in our country having better choices, better options, than if only one side is really working on the hard stuff. And if the Republican party and the conservative movement and the conservative media is stuck a vacuum-sealed door-locked spin cycle of telling each other what makes them feel good and denying the factual, lived truth of the world, then we are all deprived as a nation of the constructive debate about competing feasible ideas about real problems. > > Last night the Republicans got shellacked, and they had no idea it was coming. And we saw them in realtime, in real humiliating time, not believe it, even as it was happening to them. And unless they are going to secede, they are going to have to pop the factual bubble they have been so happy living inside if they do not want to get shellacked again, and that will be a painful process for them, but it will be good for the whole country, left, right, and center. > > You guys, we’re counting on you. Wake up. There are real problems in the world. there are real, knowable facts in the world. Let’s accept those and talk about how we might approach our problems differently. Let’s move on from there. If the Republican party and the conservative movement and conservative media are forced to do that by the humiliation they were dealt last night, we will all be better off as a nation. and in that spirit, congratulations, everybody.\ ---
**Author:** ![Rich\_Mann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce73a5/32.png) [@Rich\_Mann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rich_Mann)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/37 "2012-11-08T11:21:39Z")
**B. Serum**. Could you, please provide a link to these remarks? My conservative brother needs to read this. Please? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/38 "2012-11-08T11:26:46Z")
> [@Rich\_Mann](#): > > **B. Serum**. Could you, please provide a link to these remarks? My conservative brother needs to read this. > > Please? [On her Blog](http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/39 "2012-11-08T14:13:18Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > AGW is a scam (I find it ironic that Gore flies around the country in his private jet while warning of the dangers of fossil fuels), Benghazi is, was and forever will be a big deal, and whether or not UHC works in other countries (debatable) is not indicative of whether or not it will work in the U.S. Just to put this on the record, Global Climate Change - the proper name - real and terrifying. It’s the biggest problem we have, in any reckoning and by any measure. No actions by any individual mean anything. It is a true tragedy of the commons. Only by concerted collective effort will anything positive occur. History will judge this election solely by the lack of attention both parties gave to the tsunami that is already visible. But it will save its harshest words for the deniers. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/40 "2012-11-08T14:22:37Z")
> [@Rich\_Mann](#): > > **B. Serum**. Could you, please provide a link to these remarks? My conservative brother needs to read this. > > Please? Good luck, but expect some dismissive comment about “Rachel Madcow” or whatever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300.md?page=3)