# The Conflict between Conservative "Facts" and Reality **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 8, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300 "2012-11-08T00:04:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JQPublic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ac8455/32.png) [@JQPublic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JQPublic)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/41 "2012-11-08T14:53:38Z")
The one flaw in the question in that is asserts that because a majority of people agree with something that is must be true. It was a common belief that the Earth was the center of the universe. That the Earth was flat. That illness could be cured by bloodletting. At the time all of these examples weren’t opinon but FACT. Being in the majority doesn’t make it right. There are too many expample of genocide throughout history that prove having the numbers on your side means your right. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/42 "2012-11-08T15:05:01Z")
I’m not ready to paint all Romney voters with the same brush. My mother voted for Romney…she self-identifies as a Republican but not as a “conservative”. For the most part I can have rational political discussions with her. She has never once mentioned Bengazi, Solyandra or “Fast and Furious” during any of them.I don’t think she has ever once watched Fox News. About the only dust-up we had was when I told her I was suprised she was voting for Romney. I said something to the effect of …"wait,…let me get this straight… you listen to NPR, you watch NBC netork news and your favorite guys are Brian Williams and George Stephanoplis, not to mention that your entire household is surviving on a combination of food stamps, Social security and State and SS disability and you’re NOT voting for Obama?? But even then she didn’t get it…she’s an old school Republican who is out-of touch with the media blather from both sides. Last week she told me she had pretty much resigned herself to an Obama victory. I can actually have real discussions with her because I have learned that she is a really smart woman who probably wasn’t born in the best time for a smart woman to be born ( she’s 85 ) and she has some die-hard views and I have drastically different views. But she sees her world through her own filters, not anyone else’s. Much easier for me to be patient with her than the FNC dittoheads…I got such a kick out of them being 100% assured of victory when anyone with half a brain could tell they had a pretty narrow chance ( not NO chance, just a narrow one ) and I loved watching their devasted little faces afterwards, ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/43 "2012-11-08T15:06:34Z")
> [@JQPublic](#): > > The one flaw in the question in that is asserts that because a majority of people agree with something that is must be true. > It was a common belief that the Earth was the center of the universe. That the Earth was flat. That illness could be cured by bloodletting. > At the time all of these examples weren’t opinon but FACT. > Being in the majority doesn’t make it right. There are too many expample of genocide throughout history that prove having the numbers on your side means your right. No. There is s difference between ignorant people thinking thunder is God being angry at them, and us knowing it is the result of rapidly expanding air from a lightning stroke. Knowledge gained from observation and experimentation, is different than common conjecture. We know Climate Change is real, not because a bunch of cavemen agree on it via intuition, but because scientists have evidence for it and agree that it best matches the overwhelming amount of evidence we’ve gathered. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/44 "2012-11-08T15:13:49Z")
> [@Rich\_Mann](#): > > **B. Serum**. Could you, please provide a link to these remarks? My conservative brother needs to read this. > > Please? Here is a link to the video on Youtube. Very compelling. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzcYX93TEYo](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzcYX93TEYo) ---
**Author:** ![JQPublic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ac8455/32.png) [@JQPublic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JQPublic)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/45 "2012-11-08T15:17:01Z")
Knowledge gained from observation and experimentation, is different than common conjecture. We know Climate Change is real, not because a bunch of cavemen agree on it via intuition, but because scientists have evidence for it and agree that it best matches the overwhelming amount of evidence we’ve gathered. [/QUOTE] But the Earth has been getting warm and cold ever since it was formed. Can you tell me what the temperature of the Earth is supposed to be? How do you know that the temperature of the Earth isn’t finally normalizing from the last ice age? Yes, climate changes, as it has forever. And man has adapted to it forever as well. So why the arrogance that it’s up to us to “change” the weather. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/46 "2012-11-08T15:26:18Z")
> [@JQPublic](#): > > But the Earth has been getting warm and cold ever since it was formed. Can you tell me what the temperature of the Earth is supposed to be? How do you know that the temperature of the Earth isn’t finally normalizing from the last ice age? Yes, climate changes, as it has forever. And man has adapted to it forever as well. So why the arrogance that it’s up to us to “change” the weather. No I couldn’t. I can’t really prove Magic Elves don’t make computers go either. But I know a whole lot of smart computery guys who could and a whole bunch of climatey guys who answered your questions years ago. That you actually believe you are making a sensible point rather than parroting stupid, asinine talking points fed to you via the well-funded special interest climate change denial industry is a perfect illustration of The Alternate Reality Bubble that has made patsies of the the Right to the point they now cannot win a Presidential Election against a limping lame duck like Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/47 "2012-11-08T15:35:06Z")
> [@JQPublic](#): > > But the Earth has been getting warm and cold ever since it was formed. Yes. But it has done so in a manner we understand. > [@](#): > > Can you tell me what the temperature of the Earth is supposed to be? How do you know that the temperature of the Earth isn’t finally normalizing from the last ice age? Because scientists can look at the information we have and intelligently understand what’s happening. Unfocusing your eyes and saying, “Like how do we know anything, man?” isn’t productive. You can doubt whatever you’d like, but you are not doing it based on intelligence and observation. You are doing it based on intuition. And like a caveman living in fear of the thunder God’s wrath, you aren’t being productive. > [@](#): > > Yes, climate changes, as it has forever. And man has adapted to it forever as well. So why the arrogance that it’s up to us to “change” the weather. Because we have evidence to show it. You not understanding or accepting that evidence has exactly nothing to do with it’s validity. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/48 "2012-11-08T15:41:32Z")
The republican party embraced evangelical and fundamentalist Christians. These then infected the party. Not just on matters of policy, but with a belief in the importance of belief. These people actually think that if you believe something with all your heart, then that is enough to make it true. This sort of magic thinking works OK in church, where you only find out it didn’t work when you are dead. It is a disaster when it comes to public policy. And the infection isn’t limited to the power of belief. Evangelicals deride “cafeteria Christians” in exactly the same way that conservatives deride RINO’s who don’t voice support for every check box in the conservative creed. IMO, this all-or-nothing when it comes to conservative ideology is just the religious base of the republican party transferring what they learn in church to their political beliefs. The republicans had a bad infection when the religious right started controlling policy. Now that they have control of the thought process as well, it has become a flesh eating bacteria. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/49 "2012-11-08T15:54:30Z")
[Claxon alarm blaring] > [@JQPublic](#): > > The one flaw in the question in that is asserts that because a majority of people agree with something that is must be true. I feel like Stephen Fry at QI, No, in reality most of the items mentioned by the OP and others are ideas \*\* that are not \*\* taken as facts by a majority or a good chunk of the population, it happens that most of the ones that believe that science based facts are hooey are mostly conservatives and republicans. Propaganda and media are mostly to blame for this. The general gist of the OP is related to items that are based on facts but misinterpreted by the general population, it just so happens that you should be aware that spin and propaganda can affect everyone, even you. Case in point: > [@JQPublic](#): > > It was a common belief that the Earth was the center of the universe. So far so good, gets a point. > [@JQPublic](#): > > That the Earth was flat. [Claxon alarm blaring] Usually applied to all before Columbus, but earlier than that many were aware that the earth was a sphere. > [@JQPublic](#): > > That illness could be cured by bloodletting. [Claxon alarm blaring] In general, but it is very likely that ancient people arrived to that cure with some good reasons: > **[Can high blood pressure be reduced through bloodletting? Plus: Did Kane...](https://www.straightdope.com/21344008/can-high-blood-pressure-be-reduced-through-bloodletting-plus-did-kane-kramer-invent-the-ipod-in-1979)** > [@](#): > > Sometimes bloodletting worked, sort of. It was used to treat dropsy, an old name for fluid retention or edema, one of the central elements in congestive heart failure. Among other things, edema can make it difficult to breathe, and until the introduction of diuretics and vasodilators, bloodletting was one of the few ways to deal with it – the practice didn’t die out until the 20th century. > [@JQPublic](#): > > At the time all of these examples weren’t opinon but FACT. As pointed out, it is not so simple. > [@JQPublic](#): > > Being in the majority doesn’t make it right. There are too many expample of genocide throughout history that prove having the numbers on your side means your right. But in context it is clear that you are trying to make the opposite point, supporting the woo woo ideas that many Republicans are pushing nowadays. We are not talking about ideas that have support of just a few scientists or crackpots who the Fasists and Comunist dictators relied with, **we have even the majority of conservative and Republican scientists telling you that in issues like Global Warming most of the Republican party is taking the fake “snake oil”**.\* - That funnily enough, QI would tell you that it was also beneficial in some circumstances!! 🙂 [http://old.qi.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=10536&start=0&sid=c1e2eadc854c7d5f9401ea8e936ac6e8](http://old.qi.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=10536&start=0&sid=c1e2eadc854c7d5f9401ea8e936ac6e8) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/50 "2012-11-08T15:56:10Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I understand boosterism and positive thinking. But as I recall, in 2004 there weren’t any memes about “oversampling” or alternate guys who just altered the polls to make them more comfortable. Sure there were. Many posts on this board talked about how pollsters were undersampling your voter because they were calling land line phones for surveys, and not cell phones. > [@Florida polls: Now Bush is up by 1% in two different ones.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/florida-polls-now-bush-is-up-by-1-in-two-different-ones/272447/18): > > [Electoral-vote.com](http://www.electoral-vote.com/index.html) > > Scroll down the page to the final 2000 national poll results. While Gore was just slightly higher in the final popular vote, only 2 polls had Gore ahead, with 2 tied. This suggests to me that however the pollsters were doing things in 2000, they had a sample that was skewed Republican. Perhaps younger voters hang up on pollsters more than older people? With the cell phone factor missing a lot more younger voters than in 2000, this may skew the poll sample even more Republican. > [@Polls have Kerry and Bush in a dead heat, but...](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polls-have-kerry-and-bush-in-a-dead-heat-but/270675/10): > > You automatically have to add a few points to Kerry for the national polls. They don’t account for new voters, for cell phones or for overseas votes. That means they are missing almost the entire youth vote and an awful lot of the absentee votes from Americans abroad are going to Kerry. My father is a 22 year State Department dip now doing a tour in Brazil. He says the sentiment abroad among Americans- at least among the civilians- is almost violently anti-Bush…they have to reap the consequences of Bush’s anti-international dick waving, after all. The absentee vote from the military has always gone more or less for the Pub, but there’s a lot of resentment in the miltary right now, and more minorities as well. That military vote is no longer as solid for the Pubs as it once was. They’ll still probably win a majority of it but it’s not a blow out any more. > > Kerry is leading today at [Electoral-Vote.com](http://Electoral-Vote.com), btw. > [@Zogby claims Kerry holds landslide electoral vote margin. WTF?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/zogby-claims-kerry-holds-landslide-electoral-vote-margin-wtf/247101/5): > > It is interesting how he points out that now polling can’t reach people who have no land line and have moved to cell only. I would guess that’s a group that skews young and democratic. > [@Polls have Kerry and Bush in a dead heat, but...](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polls-have-kerry-and-bush-in-a-dead-heat-but/270675/11): > > Don’t watch the numbers, Kerry vs. Bush. Watch Bush vs. Bush. If Bush goes over 50% in the polls, he should win. If he can’t cross 48%, he will lose. Undecideds break for the challenger by more than 5 to 1. The story is going to be the turnout. High turnouts historically favor Democrats, and this turnout should be historic. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/51 "2012-11-08T16:36:00Z")
True enough, even today many on the left have trouble understanding how badly Obama lost. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/52 "2012-11-08T16:44:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure there were. Many posts on this board talked about how pollsters were undersampling your voter because they were calling land line phones for surveys, and not cell phones. None of that is positing a conspiracy of the Mainstream Media to win it for Bush. Please leave your typical distracting tu quoques out of this thread, okay? We’re not talking about really wanting your guy to win, we’re talking about systematically pretending that evidence to the contrary is a willful lie. In any case, it was the Kerry election cycle that taught the people you listed to trust polling. I’m sure they wouldn’t claim these things now, especially post Nate Silver. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/53 "2012-11-08T16:59:49Z")
The differences between Conservatives and Liberals when it comes to things like ignoring the polls, alternate theories, involving disgusting political tropes and stereotypes is that the Conservative message of ignorance and hate is mainstreamed. It is their DNA now. Whether it is ignoring polls, or ignoring science on global warming, or how a woman shuts down during rape, or jobs reports, the disputing of facts is not a fringe or sometimes thing for COnservatives, it is part of their philosophy. They degrade academics and science and logic because it is inconvenient to their conservative and religious beliefs… Yes, Liberal and progressives can be deluded by their own echo chamber, but like Daniel Patrick Moynihan once said, “You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.” ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/54 "2012-11-08T18:59:40Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I feel like Stephen Fry at QI,… Blue whale. [Claxon alarm blaring] ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/55 "2012-11-08T19:16:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure there were. Many posts on this board talked about how pollsters were undersampling your voter because they were calling land line phones for surveys, and not cell phones. Scanning quotes for claims of deliberate misrepresentation, as opposed to honest error… Scanning… Scanning… Scan complete. Evidence not found. When return, please bring evidence. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/56 "2012-11-08T19:22:21Z")
> [@Rich\_Mann](#): > > **B. Serum**. Could you, please provide a link to these remarks? My conservative brother needs to read this. > > Please? Here is the full 16 minute piece in [video format](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/). Look for the thing called “Time for the right to leave the bubble” The money bit begins at 9:14. (Note: there’s a 30 second video for "Microsoft surface that you can’t get around) ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/57 "2012-11-08T19:22:43Z")
Bricker, you are off your rocker if you think a few posters on the straight dope message board, and a few liberal blogs/websites in 2004 claiming that the polls might be a little wrong because of the issue of cell phones - a realistic possibility - is anything like the conservative echo chamber blathering on and on about how polls were constantly oversampling democrats consistently one after another - a scientific impossibility. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/58 "2012-11-08T19:26:08Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Scanning quotes for claims of deliberate misrepresentation, as opposed to honest error… > > Scanning… > > Scanning… > > Scan complete. Evidence not found. When return, please bring evidence. Of course, you don’t have any evidence for deliberate misrepresentation as opposed to honest error on the Conservative side this go round either. Ah, but that’s different. You were talking about _liberals_. This thread is about conservatives\*\*. Conservatives don’t make honest errors. They are obviously lying. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/59 "2012-11-08T19:34:57Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Bricker, you are off your rocker if you think a few posters on the straight dope message board, and a few liberal blogs/websites in 2004 claiming that the polls might be a little wrong because of the issue of cell phones - a realistic possibility - is anything like the conservative echo chamber blathering on and on about how polls were constantly oversampling democrats consistently one after another - a scientific impossibility. You’ve misunderstood the issue. No one was suggesting that “polls were constantly oversampling democrats consistently one after another”. But that’s not how polls work. Pollsters don’t just take the results of their surveys and publish them as polls. If that were the case, anyone with a phone could go into business as a pollster. What pollsters do after they’ve collected the raw data is to go back and check the data to see if it contains what they consider to be a proper cross section of the population. And if it doesn’t, then they adjust the results to weight the data by relevant demographic slice. All pollsters do this. And they especially do this closer to the election, when they begin basing results on likely voters rather than registered voters. This involves more assumptions as to who is actually a “likely voter”. So they are all making adjustments based on what they believe to be the voting population. The question is about the assumptions that they use to make these adjustments. The claim that the pollsters were systematically oversampling Democrats was dubious to begin with, and turned out to be false. But it was not a completely unreasonable claim, and in fact there have been election cycles in which the pollsters have systematically undersampled Republicans (& others where they’ve undersampled Democrats). But in any event, the claim being made was not the one you’re putting forth here. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300/60 "2012-11-08T19:38:40Z")
I’m not sure if the distinction between an “honest” error and an error born of ideological dumthink is worth the effort. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-conflict-between-conservative-facts-and-reality/640300.md?page=4)