# The (constructive, effective) disagreement thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 10, 2020, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194 "2020-11-10T03:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![agzem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@agzem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agzem)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/41 "2020-11-10T16:34:34Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Do you care about it at all? Yes I do ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/42 "2020-11-10T22:09:49Z")
Your right he said it. When? Years ago? And it was locker room talk. Its sick, nasty and wrong but it shouldnt be taken as policy. BTW, women can be equally as nasty just get them together with friends and get some drinks in them. And SW made a good point. Was that really what made people vote for Hillary or Biden? ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/43 "2020-11-10T22:12:58Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Your right he said it. When? Years ago? And it was locker room talk. Its sick, nasty and wrong but it shouldnt be taken as policy. “Locker room talk” \<\> confessing to criminal sexual assault. It doesn’t have to be ‘taken as policy’ to be disqualifying for the highest office in the land. > [@urbanredneck2](#): > > BTW, women can be equally as nasty just get them together with friends and get some drinks in them. “Nasty” \<\> confessing to criminal sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/44 "2020-11-10T22:16:11Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > You tolerate the most disgusting attitudes toward women and minorities and then get offended when we call you racist or sexist. What do you mean? Trump had a great record at employing and working with minorities. Many gays voted for him because he supported them years ago when he worked in Hollywood or employed them when they worked at his casinos. [Gays for Trump](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trump-pride-gay-republicans-why-they-re-backing-president-n1243469) Did you ever watch his show “The Apprentice”? Did he ever use racist or sexist insults on people? ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/45 "2020-11-10T22:18:44Z")
@JaneDoe42 I don’t know if this will help or not but I found this documentary illuminating. > **[The Brainwashing Of My Dad](https://www.thebrainwashingofmydad.com/)** > > The truth behind the right-wing media machine that changed a father--and divided the nation I am fortunate that my spouse isn’t like this (she is, in fact, far lefter than I am). I have numerous friends and cousins that are like this though and I have lost friends in the past couple years. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/46 "2020-11-10T22:20:22Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Did you ever watch his show “The Apprentice”? Did he ever use racist or sexist insults on people? I’d be interested in the answer to that, too: > **[Why The Donald Trump Apprentice Tapes Won't Be Released, According To Mark...](https://www.cinemablend.com/television/1565331/why-the-donald-trump-apprentice-tapes-wont-be-released-according-to-mark-burnett)** > > It's a known fact that Donald Trump said some unsavory things while filming a segment for Access Hollywood nearly a decade ago, but whether or not he was equally inappropriate while on Celebrity Appre [or choose from a long list of your favorite sources] NDA … strikes again. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/47 "2020-11-10T22:30:24Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Your right he said it. When? Years ago? And it was locker room talk. Its sick, nasty and wrong but it shouldnt be taken as policy. At least twenty women have accused him of doing _the exact thing he bragged about_ - committing sexual assault. The fact that you would defend it here is sickening and reinforces the assumption that Trump supporters are pro-misogyny. Women’s rights were for sure on my mind when I selected a candidate. I was annoyed that Biden didn’t take accountability for invading women’s personal space, however benign his intentions, and I don’t know what to make of the Tara Reid thing. She’s obviously batshit crazy, but batshit crazy people are more likely to be victimized so that doesn’t exactly exonerate him. I almost didn’t vote for him. What it came down to is this : Biden has long advocated policies to help sexual assault victims and I don’t figure that will change as a priority in his Presidency. > [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Did you ever watch his show “The Apprentice”? Did he ever use racist or sexist insults on people? Yes. He humiliated a female contestant by telling her she would make a pretty picture down on her knees. He also commented on Hillary Clinton’s ass during the Presidential Debates. He kept creeping up behind her, said he’d gotten a good view of her behind and he wasn’t impressed. He attacked a female debate moderator by referring to her menstruation. He supports taking away women’s reproductive rights. He put Betsy DeVos in charge who promptly held meetings with incel groups in shaping sexual assault policies on campus. To repeat, she met with a group of men who believe women owe them sex, to inform her decisions about sexual assault on campus. He’s a disaster for women. The only thing I’ll give him is increasing VOCA funding, but he’s undermined women’s rights in so many other ways it’s at least a wash. Are we still on target for the purpose of this thread? Obviously logic and examples don’t work. Nothing works. It’s absolutely hopeless. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/48 "2020-11-10T22:32:53Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > I don’t know if this will help or not but I found this documentary illuminating. Thanks, I’m going to watch this! It’s free on imdb tv if you’re ok with commercials. > **[Watch The Brainwashing of My Dad | Prime Video](https://www.amazon.com/Brainwashing-My-Dad-Matthew-Modine/dp/B01C69O9ZE)** > > A filmmaker explores the radical change of her once Democratic father to an angry right-wing fanatic after his immersion in talk radio and Fox News. She discovers this to be a powerful phenomenon that has divided families across the nation. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/49 "2020-11-10T22:44:30Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > What do you mean? Trump had a great record at employing and working with minorities. > **[Here's the disgusting way black employees were treated at Donald Trump's casino](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/08/trump-casinos-black-employees/)** > > "They put us all in the back." Then one should remember how when it was revealed that undocumented where working in places like Mar-a-lago he did not help them, he fired them quickly. > [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Many gays voted for him because he supported them years ago when he worked in Hollywood or employed them when they worked at his casinos. [Gays for Trump](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trump-pride-gay-republicans-why-they-re-backing-president-n1243469) The ignorance is appalling here. > **[To the Republican Parents of My Gay Best Friend: Here’s Why You Shouldn’t...](https://slate.com/human-interest/2016/11/to-the-gop-parents-of-my-gay-best-friend-dont-vote-for-trump.html)** > > Four years ago, I wrote you an open letter, arguing that, while I could appreciate your long loyalty to the Republican Party, voting for Mitt Romney... > **[A List of Trump’s “Unprecedented Steps” for the LGBTQ Community](https://www.hrc.org/news/the-list-of-trumps-unprecedented-steps-for-the-lgbtq-community)** > > HRC lists Trump's persistent attacks against the LGBTQ community after the RNC claims he's taken "unprecedented steps" in support of the community. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/50 "2020-11-10T23:38:11Z")
Back in 2016 I had a Republican friend who made the reluctant decision to vote for Trump. I was pretty frustrated about it, especially in light of Trump celebrating sexual assault, and I remember saying to her, “Tell me this is not okay. If you’re going to vote for him, fine, but admit to me how fucked up this is.” And she responded, “It’s not okay. I’m sorry how much this is hurting you and you have good reason to be hurt. But I am voting for XY and Z reasons (mostly boiled down to economics.)” And I was at peace. I think I feel better when people can acknowledge, rather than downplay, the horrible things their candidates do. I have never been one to glorify my own candidates. They are pretty deeply flawed and I call them out on the regular. Republicans for some reason really struggle to do this. I ended that friendship a couple of months ago because our differences could no longer be reconciled. She transformed over the last four years into someone constantly playing defense for Trump, and it frayed my last nerve when she posted an article bitching about Pelosi getting a haircut when the wheels were already turning for Trump to orchestrate some kind of coup. I couldn’t deal with someone whose priorities were so messed up. 13 years of friendship, down the drain. Yes, it was me who pulled away, but the reason I pulled away is because I had absolutely nothing to say that wasn’t hurtful. I just unfriended her in silence. Society, and I suppose liberals themselves, seem to have put the onus on Democrats to be kind and reasonable and always extending the olive branch, with no expectations that the Republicans will do the same, and frankly it’s not fair. At this point I have just as much anger as any frothing at the mouth MAGA -hat wearing Trumpster, but I’m expected to stuff _my_ anger and play nice, otherwise I’m being “divisive.” So the most compassionate response I have right now is silence. Can it be argued that silence is a good harm reduction approach? I’m not winning any hearts and minds but I’m not totally alienating anyone either. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/51 "2020-11-11T00:01:17Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > > Name another president who did that. Promises made; promises kept. Polk ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/52 "2020-11-11T00:21:29Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I couldn’t deal with someone whose priorities were so messed up. Maybe she’s in denial, and her “priorities” are a coping mechanism. I’ve heard that something similar happened after it turned out Nixon _was_ a crook or at least the boss of crooks. Probably after Harding, too. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![JaneDoe42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janedoe42/32/14104_2.png) [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/53 "2020-11-11T00:27:19Z")
Thank you, I will be watching this tonight. It really just want my husband back. I miss him a lot. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/54 "2020-11-11T00:27:50Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Maybe she’s in denial, and her “priorities” are a coping mechanism. I’ve heard that something similar happened after it turned out Nixon _was_ a crook or at least the boss of crooks. Probably after Harding, too. Yet MAGATS accuse everyone else of Trump Derangement Syndrome. I guess projection is another coping mechanism. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/55 "2020-11-11T00:56:25Z")
That’s right, projection _is_ a coping mechanism. Don’t bring this shit up directly in a confrontation with strangers, because you might come off as arrogant and holier-than-thou and then the bridges are burned beyond recognition. But as far as keeping your own head cool, if you are unwilling or unable to see things their way (which is NOT necessarily good), it’s perfectly fine to willfully attribute ignorance or denial to your opponent. I think doing so is more constructive and effective than attributions of bad faith - ignorance can be countered with facts; denial can be countered, with more difficulty, through small steps, empathy, uncomfort, and persistence. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/56 "2020-11-11T01:08:00Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > She just ignores the question. I don’t know what that means, and I don’t know if I can or should press the issue. I do NOT want to lose our friendship, for half a billion reasons. But I really would like to know what she’s thinking. Based on my interactions, the generic Floridian who voted for Trump in 2016 and won’t answer your question in 2020 is someone who either came of age or became politically cognizant during the Vietnam war/Goldwater campaign or Watergate scandal, a Jacksonian at heart, a Reaganite, someone concerned about Medicare but not necessarily Medicaid, someone who thinks Trump’s economy was the best in history, who thinks the COVID-19 pandemic response was botched (nationally and in Florida), and (if well educated on such matters) who thinks they are in grave and imminent risk of death due to the virus. Disillusioned with government and politics means you follow politics less closely, too. Read headlines and such. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/57 "2020-11-11T01:19:36Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Many gays voted for him because he supported them years ago when he worked in Hollywood or employed them when they worked at his casinos. [Gays for Trump](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trump-pride-gay-republicans-why-they-re-backing-president-n1243469) An additional 9M voters came out in support of Trump in 2020, compared to 2016. It is somewhat disappointing but not entirely surprising that some of those new voters include, blacks, hispanics and gays. Being a minority does not inoculate one from being a Trump supporter. People have interest beyond their own identity. It would be wrong to assume this is some sort of rebuke of identity or confirmation of the “WalkAway” movement. [Log Cabin Republicans](http://logcabin.org/) has been a thing for 40 years and they endorsed Trump in this election. Having gained their support in no way absolves Trump of the numerous documented bigoted remarks and actions though out his lifetime. Attempting to claim that it does is simply a wrongheaded position to take. It would be more honest to admit that it’s simply not an issue you care about. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/58 "2020-11-11T02:07:03Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > the generic Floridian who voted for Trump in 2016 and won’t answer your question in 2020 is someone who They aren’t actually from Florida; they’re Northeasterners through and through, but work caused them to move to Florida a few years ago. Still, your description is not necessarily wrong. I actually wrote to the wife and told her I was discussing the matter with some like-minded people, and politely asked her if she would share her vote/reasoning, assuring her that I would not argue with her answer, or lack thereof, in any way. I’m curious to see what happens. No answer yet, but it has only been a few hours and she leads an insanely busy life without respite (taking care of a lot of farm animals on top of a full-time job, so no option to goof off). If she does answer, I’ll share in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/59 "2020-11-11T03:03:39Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > 13 years of friendship, down the drain I’m sorry to hear it. Part of me thinks that there’s a bigger picture, that politics are just part of our lives. Can’t we get past some of these things, or are politics so important? If you’re an elderly Jewish woman and I’m a young Presbyterian guy but we enjoy each other’s company, can’t we be friends if we voted differently? But Trump divides us and won’t concede, making people dig in. Even if you were willing to overlook some things this is likely to get protracted and bring differences to the forefront. ## I rough drafted something WRT the point in the OP, that Trump kept all promises. My aims were to be sort of conversational, not threatening. What do you think? It’s sad how divided the country seems to be these days, isn’t it? I think a lot has to do with where we get our information. Not everybody interprets things the same way of course but if we could at least _start_ with the same facts it would help. When I read your list, one particular item jumped out at me. You say that Trump kept all his promises. I say respectfully, it’s hard for me to imagine any politician doing that. He was elected four years ago, so I don’t remember a lot of things he said, but I do recall he made a big point of building the wall. That wasn’t complete, last I heard. I don’t consider myself Republican or Democrat, but if I had to pick I’d be more Democrat. I think some websites favor one side or the other, so sometimes it’s useful to look outside our country for a less biased opinion. I found this on the BBC. It gives him a mixed report card. > **[US election 2020: Has Trump delivered on his promises?](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37982000)** > > Donald Trump made voters a number of promises before they elected him. But has he kept his word? Do you know of a source that says otherwise? * * * I just went in and found this comment: > [@](#): > > I wasn’t going to say anything but #5, come on you can’t be serious. Where’s the wall? Where is the replacement for Obamacare? Where was draining the swamp? Where was bringing the coal industry back? You could write and a book on what he didn’t fulfill. That’s nonsense. Honesty time…I have zero interaction with him and if I never speak to him again, well wait, have I ever spoken to him? Maybe once, as in “This is my husband.” I agree with @Spice_Weasel that there’s some weird politeness (?) thing. I should probably put my beliefs out there more…not a “confront your ideas” but “assert my ideas” thing. Rather than put someone on the defensive, let them look at what I posted and review it at their leisure. I’ve watched 2/3 of the doc @Intergalactic_Gladiator posted, wondering how much hope there is as I watch. It specifically brings up Rush Limbaugh. You know, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient? If you want to understand how they got where they are, it’s worth watching. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194/60 "2020-11-11T03:41:38Z")
If you’re going to attack campaign promises I think it’s best to attack the ones that you wish Trump _had_ fulfilled. That way you are finding common ground in disillusion with Trump instead of straight up attacking your friend’s political beliefs. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-constructive-effective-disagreement-thread/925194.md?page=4)