# The Core Flaw In Christian Dogma **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2001, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195 "2001-04-16T19:52:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/61 "2001-04-18T22:44:51Z")
Stoid – the questions you pose have been posed ever since our ancestors first developed enough self-realization to understand that there was something beyond what they could experience first-hand. I am not a philosopher, but I’ll be happy to take a shot at giving my personal perspective on a few of your points. > [@](#): > > **I do not believe in a “Creator”. That notion is, to me, completely nonsensical. It is beyond my poor imagination to see the circumstance under which I might come to believe in the existance of a being so powerful that it could have created the universe, the earth, and all the life upon it. That is simply off the table.** Is it any easier to believe that everything in the universe was compressed into an inconceivably small mass and suddenly, for no reason at all, exploded and keeps expanding to this day? And that somehow one or several of the clumps of matter from this explosion had exactly the right conditions for life to develop? Let’s face it, the creation of the universe is a mystery and a miracle no matter what you believe. The concept of a “prime mover” goes back at least to Rousseau, and was embraced by my father (the agnostic) – and they both were a lot more rational than I am. > [@](#): > > \*\* What I believe about the universe that can be classified as metaphysical or supernatural, I came to believe through evidence which I found astonishingly compelling. \*\* Compelling evidence or not, I submit that there remain things for which we simply can not find a rational explanation. > [@](#): > > \*\* > The meaning of Christmas was explained to me as “something some people believe” and the story of Christ an allegory. \*\* And yet, if I read your earlier post correctly, at some point in your life, you chose to accept that there was a “historical” Jesus, if not a divine one. > [@](#): > > \*\*Sometimes I am sad because I am tormented by fears that I am sure I would not have if I could have a pure and true faith in something like Christianity. But I cannot, so I must grapple with what my mind will accept. \*\* If you’re familiar with the Gospels, you will recall that Jesus, too, had doubts, and the night before He died, prayed for strength. > [@](#): > > \*\*it is ultimately about “salvation” - if in fact there is a Creator, I find it utterly perverse that he would put us in a position where we must “be saved”. I guess this falls under the items I referred to in the OP as being ludicrous. Beyond the business of faith and belief, is the whole foundation of Christian religion, which is the nature of God. . .What is the point of the Tree of Knowledge? Doesnt’ that strike any of you Christians as just the tiniest bit cruel? \*\* Ah, the heart of the issue. Was the commandment not to eat from the tree cruel or hard-hearted? Was God a sadist for putting temptation in front of mankind? Only if you accept the premise that doing the right thing when you have no choice in the matter is somehow preferable to having a choice. And once mankind chose to exercise the free will to go against the will of God, it became known as “original sin” in some Christian sects, and “sin” in the others. Personally, I prefer to categorize “original sin” as self-centerdness – the propensity of humans to put their desire for short-term gratification above the greater good. If we are led to sin by self-centerdness, then it stands to reason that we can only be led away from sin by selflessness. Somewhere along the line, there must have been an act so powerful that it counterbalanced the original sin of Adam and Eve, and all the sins that mankind chose to commit afterward. Only the supreme sacrifice of a perfect person – a person who despite doubts and temptations never chose to sin – would be enough. And only the resurrection of that person could show the triumph of life (and salvation) over death (and sin). And (so the logic goes) only God in the form of a human could be that perfect, and yet choose freely to make that sacrifice. And only God would have the power of life and death to rise from the dead. This exceedingly long response is my awkward way of saying that “believe in Jesus and you are saved” is not the point. The point is that Jesus was the culmination of all that went before. \*\* > [@](#): > > I read a great quote once that I should have written down, but didn’t, so forgive my feeble paraphrase: " It is the height of arrogance to believe that the limits of your perception constitute the limits of what there is to be perceived." I try to live by that as much as possible.\*\* Good words to live by, no matter who we are or what we belive. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/62 "2001-04-18T23:24:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Only the supreme sacrifice of a perfect person – a person who despite doubts and temptations never chose to sin – would be enough. Which of course demands the question: Why? And how is it a supreme sacrifice if he’s resurrected? And how is it a sacrifice if he’s god? 'Course, that’s another thread . . . 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/63 "2001-04-18T23:46:06Z")
> [@](#): > > isn’t it odd that the people who believe in God think your deluded? I can’t recall anyone who’s really said that in this thread. I’ve really seen polite disagreements and clarifications of what others consider to be mistaken notions (the whole “Faith vs. Love” angle, for instance). Not what I’d consider accusations of delusions. ---
**Author:** ![Ryo-Ohki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f17d59/32.png) [@Ryo-Ohki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryo-Ohki)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2001, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/64 "2001-04-19T01:06:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nisan \* > \*\* > If God, Jesus, Buddha or Allah intended for us to worship in any structured manner, why did they enlist the help of the infinitely fallible humans to write down all the rules and regulations in some religious text? Why not burn the message into a mountainside, or make it all appear as an elaborate birthmark on some “chosen one”? \*\* It wouldn’t matter if He did. Theists would argue that the mountainside was the Everlasting Word of God; Athiests would argue that it was a guy with a blowtorch and too much time on his hands. Ultimately, you’ve got to gather evidence, filter it, and spend a few moments in completely honest thought. And then you choose. ---
**Author:** ![Melenhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Melenhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melenhead)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2001, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/65 "2001-04-19T06:03:01Z")
is it not true that Christians think that everybody else is deluded? By sin, by the world, by satan? I didn’t intend to sound as if I was accusing. I often forget that on a message board one cannot rely on facial expression and tone. now whether anyone said that one this thread, I don’t think so…But isn’t that a given in the reason people don’t believe in God? hope that makes some sense Peace Julie ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2001, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/66 "2001-04-19T10:37:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Melenhead \* > is it not true that Christians think that everybody else is deluded? By sin, by the world, by satan? I’m sure _some_ Christians believe that, Julie; others might look at it a different way. (Even from a logical standpoint that assumes the truth of Christianity, ‘insufficient information’ is just as valid an explanation as ‘delusion’.) I honestly don’t think about it much at all. I’ve witnessed here to what I believe I’ve experienced, and it has been accepted by the other posters here, not as universal truth, but as my honest personal testimony. I can do no less for those who testify to personal religious experiences that are very different from mine - for instance, the experiences of people on this board who were ‘born again’ but have reached other conclusions about the truth of that experience. I can’t say what happened to them; only they can. I have to respect the truth as they have experienced it. I trust that when people of integrity seek the truth as best they can, the results will ultimately be good: all truth is God’s truth, and God is a trustworthy God. It will all work out. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2001, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/67 "2001-04-19T10:55:04Z")
> [@](#): > > is it not true that Christians think that everybody else is deluded? Some do… in my experience, most don’t. Most ARE capable of rational thought and realize that not everybody feels faith in the same way. However, if you’re referring to the tendency of Christian sects to try to “recruit” (save, convert, whatever) others… well, I don’t know what to tell ya, bro, aside from the fact that most sects are VERY easy-going about it. In any case, they don’t equate “not accepting God/Jesus” with “delusion”. ---
**Author:** ![SystemsCarl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@SystemsCarl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SystemsCarl)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2001, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/68 "2001-04-19T13:13:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > I reject following Jesus, I think his moral ideas are unworkable. > > Ever seen the [**Atheists for Jesus**](http://www.atheists-for-jesus.com)? \*\* Ya. As scholarship goes it’s mediocre. He managed to cobble together the writings of people who agree with his premise (or rather, whose premise he agrees with). Albert Schwitzer did a much better job of it. Now **there** was an interesting person. Take the time to find and read his biography. It’s an interesting thought and at it’s basics it may have merit. Certainly I have a hard time refuting the logic. I also have a hard time figuring out what it has to do with the subject at hand. One thing that does amuse me is that he intimates that the evils done by the Christian (read Catholic) church are born of this fallacy. Unfortunately the Catholic Church has never actually been ‘Pauline’ (well, OK, just a bit after Vatican II). You want explanations for the just plain vicious stuff done by the Catholic Church, you’ll have to read St. Augustine. He was the one who argued that the Church should become universalist at the end of a spear. ---
**Author:** ![SystemsCarl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@SystemsCarl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SystemsCarl)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2001, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/69 "2001-04-19T14:06:07Z")
**andros** > [@](#): > > By “we” I mean the people to whom you were referring in your earlier statement: I believe, I was referring to Christians in general. > [@](#): > > Now I say, “thank you very much for your concern for my soul. I assure you, it’s in good hands. I understand your beliefs; I do not share them. Bye.” > > But, unfortunately, that’s not enough for some people. I don’t know. Are we arguing for or against civilized behavior? Are you asking for help in getting rid of annoying people in general or just Evangelical Christians? That’s easy. If they are, in fact, being rude and annoying, why not ask them why you should convert to a religion who’s major tenet appears to be being rude and annoying? For that matter, exactly why should **only** the evangelical Christians go away and stop bothering you? Beer commercials and the Sierra Club are annoying and pandemic. Should we outlaw them? I find it extremely hard to believe that you are being hounded by people every waking minute. Honestly, it really does sound a little paranoid. Even if you are (being hounded night and day)… I have friends who ‘preach’ liberalism to me. Their particular brand seems to be “liberalism means you should be able to do whatever you want and be left alone by the government, unless you disagree with us.” OK, I’m being facetious… but just barely. It is, however, just as intellectually vacuous. If they are otherwise good friends I put up with their foibles, if not I stay away from them. BTW, if you think the people who show up on my door step during dinner to preach don’t annoy me also, you got another think coming. So do the nutcases from the Sierra Club for that matter. Be firm, be polite. That’s civilized behaviour. Doesn’t sound that hard. Maybe if you could be more specific? Wanna live in a civilization where you don’t have to worry about Christian Evangelicals (or the Sierra Club for that matter), try China. \ **IF** on the other hand you simply don’t like having to face the nagging feeling that there is something fundamentally wrong with your life and world view… Via Con Dios ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2001, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/70 "2001-04-19T17:17:03Z")
“What we have here is . . . failure to communicate.” **Carl** (may I call you Carl?), you told **Stoid** , back at the top of this page, > [@](#): > > We believe that you, having heard that (and by the grace of God), have enough to make the decision of accepting or rejecting it. _By “we” you meant Christians, and by “you” you meant non-Christians in general and Stoid in particular. Correct?_ If this is not correct, please cure my ignorance. > [@](#): > > Are we arguing for or against civilized behavior? We are not arguing about “civilized behaviour” at all. At least, I’m not. I simply want to know _why, if non-Christians already have the message, Christians continue to push the message._ IMO the answer, as I stated above, is that many Christians really _do not_ believe that non-Christians understand the message they’re trying to communicate. > [@](#): > > For that matter, exactly why should only the evangelical Christians go away and stop bothering you? Beer commercials and the Sierra Club are annoying and pandemic. Should we outlaw them? > > I find it extremely hard to believe that you are being hounded by people every waking minute. Honestly, it really does sound a little paranoid. I’m sorry, it seems I have not communicated myself effectively at all, because you’ve completely missed the point. I never said “only” _anyone_ should go away. I said nothing about outlawing anything. I said nothing about being hounded every waking minute. Any impressions of paranoia are purely inference on your part. Honestly, I don’t know where you got any of that from. Ease down, brother–I’m not out to get anyone. (I’m sorry you have trouble with your friends preaching “liberalism” to you, BTW. Have you considered talking to them about it instead of merely putting up with it? It seems to bother you.) > [@](#): > > if you think the people who show up on my door step during dinner to preach don’t annoy me also, you got another think coming. Never said anything of the sort. > [@](#): > > Be firm, be polite. That’s civilized behaviour. Doesn’t sound that hard. Maybe if you could be more specific? Sure, specific I can do: _Have I correctly interpreted what you said to Stoid, as quoted at the beginning of this post? If so, do you hold to it? And finally, if non-Christians have enough information to make their own decisions about their choice of religion, why do Christians continue to evangelize?_ Specific enough? I’m sorry that you found offense in my words. It was not my intent. Nor did I ever intend to attack evangelicals or any other Christians. Rereading my last post, I still don’t see anything in there that sounded like paranoia or attacking anyone. 'Fact, it looks pretty polite. :shrug: But if you want to be offended, you’re welcome to. [sub](oh, and I think you’ll find it’s “vaya con Dios,” or “go with God”)[/sub] -andros- 3124 ---
**Author:** ![SystemsCarl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@SystemsCarl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SystemsCarl)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2001, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/71 "2001-04-20T02:55:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > **In this instance, no such agreement exists; I’m surprised that wasn’t pretty obvious from my post, at least, that it doesn’t even exist among the Christians participating in this discussion. Those of us who acknowledge Christ as Lord, and who believe he accomplished something fundamental with respect to our salvation in his death and resurrection, have beliefs that diverge widely from there.** If you have a specific point to make I’ll address it. If you’re simply miffed that I _may have_ spoken too broadly for your taste. Cool. Since it adds absolutely nothing to the question at hand and is simply nitpicking a fellow Christian and supposedly a brother in Christ… Well, no wonder Christianity has such a bad rep here. We don’t even seem to respect each other. Pathetic. “Christianity” is the single most fractionalized religion on the face of the earth. Swell. If you have somthing constructive to add, do so, otherwise, find something more useful to do. Now here is an interesting topic for discussion. At what point to we no longer consider someone a Christian? The Trinity? The real presence? Was Jesus really God? Are we all just Gnostics on the bus? Who does the actual conversion of non-believer to believer? Have to wear castiron undies for that one. We could imolate each other and accomplish exactly what? Time for bed, my spelling is getting bad. \ ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2001, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/72 "2001-04-20T03:55:37Z")
Well, brother, we start by avoiding impugning the validity of someone else’s claim to be Christian. My good online friend Monty, for example, believes in God in a way vastly divergent from how I do, and with no reasonable ground for compromise. However, I respect his good faith (in both the legal and theological senses of the phrase) and his claim to be as Christian as me. God’s love and lovingkindness to us are manifold, and the gift of Jesus Christ as Redeemer is one very important – I personally would say essential – demonstration of this. However, the evangelical paradigm for witness, of attempted conviction of sin, salvation through acceptance of Jesus as savior, and Bibliocentric doctrinal narrow-ism, is only one among many valid forms of witness. I for one, and R.T. for another, have chosen other means. Ones I believe have been substantially more effective in the particular intellectual and emotional climate that reigns here. Think through the approach you are taking. And consider carefully what Stoid is asking, and why. Then rethink what your instructions on showing Christ are (hint: He explained them carefully and in detail in John 13ff.). My apologies for any snideness that may have crept into this post. It’s late, I’m tired, and I’ve juggled a bunch of matters important to me and people I care about today, and I’m not posting with as much empathy as normal. ---
**Author:** ![SystemsCarl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@SystemsCarl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SystemsCarl)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2001, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/73 "2001-04-20T04:22:43Z")
I want to apologize to one and all. After rereading my messages I think I was getting pretty cranky. 70 hour weeks and 14 straight nights of grief and marriage counseling will do that to you. OTOH, raging on you lot is safer then losing it on someone who just lost their child. And no. I’m not looking for sympathy. An explanation is not the same as an excuse. Anyway… Seems that **kunilou** was the only one of us to do a good job. Kudos kiddo. That being said. **andros.** Why to Christians preach? Why does the Sierra club preach? Why do beer companies advertise? OTOH, it WAS a commandment from Jesus (not even close to a request) and that’s pretty good enough for most Christians. > [@](#): > > \*\* > So would you mind asking your fellow Christians to stop knocking on my door and leaving tracts at my bus stop? > \*\* > [@](#): > > \*\* > Now I say, “thank you very much for your concern for my soul. I assure you, it’s in good hands. I understand your beliefs; I do not share them. Bye.” > > But, unfortunately, that’s not enough for some people. > \*\* But then there is the incredible megalomania of believing that the religious tracts at the bus station were put there just to annoy you. And yes. That IS how it came across in the message. I didn’t answer it that way. I simply replied to the point as written. Was your question “why do Christians preach at all?” as opposed to “why do Christians preach to you specifically?” The first one I answered already, the second is a mystery to me. OTOH, if it was just a throw away remark. Sorry, I took it seriously. Honest. Won’t do that again. \ It really was too cliche to get any better a response then it got. It did sound like something the 9th graders over in the Pit would say. > [@](#): > > \*\* (I’m sorry you have trouble with your friends preaching “liberalism” to you, BTW. Have you considered talking to them about it instead of merely putting up with it? It seems to bother you.) \*\* Let’s see. My point was to be civil. I made an example of what I considered to be a parallel situation in my own life. You returned smarm. OK. I’m lost. Whose turn is it to insult whom? If it weren’t such a serious subject this might be fun. > [@](#): > > (oh, and I think you’ll find it’s “vaya con Dios,” or “go with God”) Yes, I know how it’s spelled. Just tired. Must be since I did it twice. Thanks for the spelling lesson. You ought to see my Greek when I get no sleep. \ OTOH, since it seems to annoys you… **to RT** Really. Give it a rest. Night. Night. And to think, I do this for relaxation. \ Let the misunderstanding begin! ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2001, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/74 "2001-04-20T04:30:47Z")
What’s this here now? What are these men doing trampling this perfectly good salt? Wait… let me check… No, never mind. It appears to have [lost its saltiness.](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+5:13-48;MATT+6;MATT+7;&language=english&version=DARBY) Fitting, really. Oh well. Carry on, carrion. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2001, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/75 "2001-04-20T09:55:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SystemsCarl \* > If you’re simply miffed that I _may have_ spoken too broadly for your taste. Cool. Since it adds absolutely nothing to the question at hand and is simply nitpicking a fellow Christian and supposedly a brother in Christ… Well, no wonder Christianity has such a bad rep here. We don’t even seem to respect each other. Pathetic. Hmmm…you said, “Don’t get pissed yet, keep reading.” To which I replied, “Not pissed, but I’d respectfully disagree.” You’re reading a lot of emotion in where there was none there, and throwing back a lot of stuff whose tone is, unfortunately, pretty unmistakable. Take a moment to simmer down, my friend. It’s clear from our posts that we see our faith in somewhat different ways. That’s sustainable as long as our words and actions give room for that divergence, and we all recognize that none of us knows the mind of the Lord for sure. But saying “We (Christians) believe” of beliefs that are somewhat conflicting of those of other Christians (in the room, let alone in the world at large) is not the way to do so. ---
**Author:** ![SystemsCarl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@SystemsCarl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SystemsCarl)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2001, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/76 "2001-04-20T17:10:15Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* \*\* > [@](#): > > Hmmm…you said, “Don’t get pissed yet, keep reading.” To which I replied, “Not pissed, but I’d respectfully disagree.” > \*\* Since my original message was obviously to Stoid and since Stoid was referenced directly in my message I find it difficult to relate anything I said as a personal affront. Also, remember that the messages accumulated very quickly on the forum. At the point I started composing my message there was only one or two responses, your first one not amoung them. And I STILL wasn’t responding to you but to Stoid. Stoid asked what I took to be a serious question. Stoid sounded angry, frustrated, and possibly in some pain. Stoid seemed to have a good handle on the whys and wherefores so I answered at what I hoped was the appropriate level. I answered to the best of my ability. I answered from personal experience to the issue at hand as I understood it. I stand by my answer. (BTW, why are you hesitant to consider C.S.Lewis in this case). Let’s face it. In these Forums, nit-picking minor points for fun and profit with a side order of Christian bashing seems to be a cottage industry. It substitutes for actual intellectual pursuit among the young and substitutes nicely as the electronic version of everyone running around with Metallica tee shirts as a sign of being hip. This subject was far to serious to let what appeared to be, exactly that, go by. > [@](#): > > \*\* > It’s clear from our posts that we see our faith in somewhat different ways.\*\* Probably. But from your response I had no idea just how. You didn’t site any point in my position with which you took exception so we could have worked it out. You made a blanket statement that appeared neither germane nor informative. Since your response to my response was critical and close-ended, you said, effectively, “shut up”. I was tired and overreacted. Sorry. But really. Reread, in order, the original message from Stoid, my original response, and your response to me. That’s all I had to work with. Tell me what I should have inferred from that. > [@](#): > > \*\* > That’s sustainable as long as our words and actions give room for that divergence, and we all recognize that none of us knows the mind of the Lord for sure. \*\* My answer was pretty much main line Christianity. Sin, Death, Resurrection, Redemption, Faith. You know… the basic stuff. I made no attack and other then it being a bit terse I still can’t find a problem with it. If you do have a problem with something I said, I’m happy to discuss it. I only learn new things from people I disagree with, if you agree with me then only very rarely does something new enter the loop. Enlighten me. This took over two hours (on and off) to compose. I have no idea just how many messages have entered the stream between your message to me and my response. It ain’t perfect even with much rewriting. I read and reread it and I can’t find any attack on you or your faith. If you do, please understand that I meant none and that if you do find something offensive, I would much appreciate knowing the exact charge and the particulars. Fair enough? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2001, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/77 "2001-04-20T18:32:17Z")
**Carl** : > [@](#): > > But then there is the incredible megalomania of believing that the religious tracts at the bus station were put there just to annoy you. And yes. That IS how it came across in the message. Again I offer my apologies. I can only keep on doing so. It was not my intention to convey “incredible megalomania.” I’m sorry you see it that way. > [@](#): > > Was your question “why do Christians preach at all?” as opposed to “why do Christians preach to you specifically?” Neither one. My point was that there is no reason to preach if non-Christians have already heard the message, as I think you intimated. I’m still confused, so I’ll ask again: When you told **Stoid** that “[Christians] believe that [non-Christians] . . .have enough to make the decision of accepting or rejecting it,” _what did you mean?_ If non-Christians have enough knowledge to make the decision already, why preach? I don’t know if I can make it more clear than that–but if I’m still not making sense, please let me know. If the answer is solely because the Bible says to, then that’s fine, too. > [@](#): > > It really was too cliche to get any better a response then it got. It did sound like something the 9th graders over in the Pit would say. Again, I’m sorry you took it that way. It was not my intention. I said, as an aside: > [@](#): > > (I’m sorry you have trouble with your friends preaching “liberalism” to you, BTW. Have you considered talking to them about it instead of merely putting up with it? It seems to bother you.) To which you responded: > [@](#): > > Let’s see. My point was to be civil. I made an example of what I considered to be a parallel situation in my own life. You returned smarm. OK. I’m lost. Whose turn is it to insult whom? If it weren’t such a serious subject this might be fun. I respectfully suggest that you are seeing smarm and insult where there is none to be found. I’m not sure what i said there that you find insulting, but so be it. I’m very sorry, and I did not mean to hurt you. It was a clearly misguided attempt at advice–advice which it is not my place to offer. > [@](#): > > Yes, I know how it’s spelled. Just tired. Must be since I did it twice. Thanks for the spelling lesson. You ought to see my Greek when I get no sleep. \ OTOH, since it seems to annoys you… ?? huh? It takes a lot more than misspelling “vaya” to annoy me, and I’m sorry if I came across to you that way. I was honestly trying to be helpful. Again, I apologize for any perceived insult or slight, and it won’t happen again. As a general note, I don’t believe anything I’ve posted in this thread has been “bashing” of Christ, Christianity, or Christians. While I’m not a Christian, I am anything but anti-Christian. But what the hell, I’m sorry anyway. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2001, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/78 "2001-04-20T20:43:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SystemsCarl \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > > Hmmm…you said, “Don’t get pissed yet, keep reading.” To which I replied, “Not pissed, but I’d respectfully disagree.” > > Since my original message was obviously to Stoid and since Stoid was referenced directly in my message I find it difficult to relate anything I said as a personal affront. Good grief, I was trying to convey that it _wasn’t_ a personal affront. > [@](#): > > Also, remember that the messages accumulated very quickly on the forum. At the point I started composing my message there was only one or two responses, your first one not amoung them. And I STILL wasn’t responding to you but to Stoid. True. But when you take a long time to post, it’s _extremely_ advisable to update yourself on where the discussion’s gone while you’ve been writing. Simulposting is understood, but if you’ve missed a whole day’s worth of posts, jumping in as if the thread was still at a much earlier point will confuse the discussion - as this thread illustrates. Also, because it’s a MB, your response is implicitly to everyone, regardless of who it’s specifically responding to. > [@](#): > > In these Forums, nit-picking minor points for fun and profit with a side order of Christian bashing seems to be a cottage industry. It substitutes for actual intellectual pursuit among the young and substitutes nicely as the electronic version of everyone running around with Metallica tee shirts as a sign of being hip. This subject was far to serious to let what appeared to be, exactly that, go by. Bearing false witness concerning the beliefs of one’s fellow Christians isn’t ‘nit-picking’; it’s breaking a Commandment. Part of my earlier terseness was to avoid putting it this harshly, and hoping gentler hints would succeed. I really didn’t want to frame it quite this way. Such is life. ☹ The point of your paragraph that I cited was that Christians in general believe that nonbelievers in this culture have enough information to decide on whether this God stuff is real. I beg to differ, and so do many other Christians. I don’t take it personally, but too many conservative Christians, especially, routinely speak as if they are speaking for all of Christianity. Having endured a couple of decades of it, I try to make the point where appropriate - hopefully politely - that on many points, they don’t. > [@](#): > > If you do have a problem with something I said, I’m happy to discuss it. I only learn new things from people I disagree with, if you agree with me then only very rarely does something new enter the loop. Enlighten me. > [snip] > This took over two hours (on and off) to compose. I have no idea just how many messages have entered the stream between your message to me and my response. It ain’t perfect even with much rewriting. I read and reread it and I can’t find any attack on you or your faith. If you do, please understand that I meant none and that if you do find something offensive, I would much appreciate knowing the exact charge and the particulars. Fair enough? The apology is accepted. And I apologize for my earlier terseness: I thought I was more likely to offend and say the wrong thing if I said too much, so I kept it short. But I hope this illustrates how easy it is to assume that one’s own beliefs are everyone’s when they’re not. None of us has the right to speak for people we don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2001, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/79 "2001-04-20T21:42:45Z")
> [@](#): > > The point of your paragraph that I cited was that Christians in general believe that nonbelievers in this culture have enough information to decide on whether this God stuff is real. I beg to differ, and so do many other Christians. As does this non-Christian. Thanks, Captain Spaulding. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2001, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195/80 "2001-04-20T23:48:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > **And if I am doomed because I cannot make myself believe, doesn’t that strike anyone as just the tiniest bit unfair?** Yes, and that’s why I’m not a Calvinist! But other than that, you seem to be saying that it is impossible for you to believe something which has not been proven to you. I think this is a a non sequitor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-core-flaw-in-christian-dogma/62195.md?page=5)