# The Cosmos: Created , not by chance. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2000, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133 "2000-04-19T16:46:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/1 "2000-04-19T16:46:00Z")
1. Whatever begins to exist, has a cause for it’s coming into being (something cannot spontaeously come to be with a causing agent) 2)The cosmos began to exist. 3)Therefore, the universe has a cause for its coming into being. (God) Arguments? * * * Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![Mergirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Mergirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mergirl)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/2 "2000-04-19T16:58:00Z")
I agree with what you said. From there on I am a bit of a deist. The Universe has scientific principles which govern it. Anyone who studies Biology can see the macrocosm in the microcosm. Each system is interdependent, and keeps the other systems in check within certain parameters. And that is my little Unified Theory. * * * “We must jump up and down and down, and around and around.” - Tori Amos ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/3 "2000-04-20T05:06:00Z")
That the universe came into existence is not evidence as to the identity of the causative agent. Defining God as the causative agent of the universe and then using the universe as evidence of God is circular. ---
**Author:** ![Mergirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Mergirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mergirl)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/4 "2000-04-20T05:12:00Z")
_shrug_ Works for me. Helps me sleep at night. Never said it had to work for you. * * * “We must jump up and down and down, and around and around.” - Tori Amos ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/5 "2000-04-20T05:13:00Z")
1. Whatever exists began to exist at some specified point in time. 2. God exists. 3. Therefore, God began to exist at some specified point in time. 4. Whatever began at some specified point in time has a cause for its coming into being. 5)God began to exist at a specified point in time. 6)Therefore, God has a cause for its coming into being. Arguments? ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/6 "2000-04-20T05:14:00Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. Whatever begins to exist, has a cause for it’s coming into being (something cannot spontaeously come to be with a causing agent) False, according to current scientific experiments. An electron and anti-electron have been shown to pop out of nowhere with absolutely no discernable cause. > [@](#): > > 2)The cosmos began to exist. Are you speaking of the universe, i.e. everything that exists? If so, we have no proof that the universe has not always existed, and is not going through a boom-and-bust period of big bang/big crunch. If all things that exist cannot have always existed, then God would have had to begin to exist, and therefore by your logic (which is flawed, as I pointed out above) would need a creator. The difference between an always existing or spontaneously appearing universe and an always existing or spontaneously appearing God is that we have _far_ more evidence that the Universe exists. * * * Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that She is pink; logically, we know She is invisible because we can’t see Her. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/7 "2000-04-20T05:18:00Z")
Dad Kunilou (a committed agnostic) would put it this way. "I do not believe that the universe was created by random chance. There had to be a creator. “However, even if there WERE a creator, there is nothing to prove or disprove that it was an all-powerful God or that it continued to exist once its job was done.” * * * I understand all the words, they just don’t make sense together like that. ---
**Author:** ![Mergirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Mergirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mergirl)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/8 "2000-04-20T05:25:00Z")
kunilou, I love that, it is so true. There are so many things that we puny humans cannot know, the way things are now. There are so many possibilities, and some are possibilities so alien to us that we are incapable of even concieving them. We all need to start thinking outside the grooves and discovering new ways of percieving things, new ways of piecing together the evidence we have, new methods of interpretation. Ways of dreaming up things that seem impossible now. The origin of the Universe is a great jumping-off point. ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/9 "2000-04-19T19:50:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Otto: > **That the universe came into existence is not evidence as to the identity of the causative agent. Defining God as the causative agent of the universe and then using the universe as evidence of God is circular.** I disagree. Everything that does exist NECESSARILY must have been caused to exist. But caused by what? Beyond everything there is, there cannot be nothing. That would mean that reality is base on nothing - absurd. So then, there must be something that is uncaused, and that something is that which everything else is dependent. Our existence, everything’s existence, was started, necessarily by something that was uncaused. God. * * * Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/10 "2000-04-19T19:51:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by pldennison: > \*\*1) Whatever exists began to exist at some specified point in time. > > 1. God exists. > > 2. Therefore, God began to exist at some specified point in time. > > 3. Whatever began at some specified point in time has a cause for its coming into being. > > 5)God began to exist at a specified point in time. > > 6)Therefore, God has a cause for its coming into being. > > Arguments?\*\* Your argument doesn’t flow logically. See my reply to Otto. * * * Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/11 "2000-04-19T19:58:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Whatever begins to exist, has a cause for it’s coming into being (something cannot spontaeously come to be with a causing agent) > [@](#): > > Everything that does exist NECESSARILY must have been caused to exist. A questionable assumption. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but it’s definitely questionable. As mentioned earlier, quantum mechanics can certainly be interpreted as refuting that statement; and quantum mechanics is _very_well established. If you can’t conceive of something coming into being without a causative agent, that’s not proof that it cannot happen. Since your initial premise is not a reasonable axiom, the conclusions from that premise are also suspect. Now, please note that I’m not claiming you’re _ **wrong** _. I kind of suspect that you’re wrong, but I have no proof. I’m just saying that your logical “proof” is flawed. * * * jrf ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/12 "2000-04-19T20:00:00Z")
Oh, and one more thing; if nothing can come into being without a causative agent, where did God come from? Or do you beleive she’s an exception to the rule? * * * jrf ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/13 "2000-04-19T20:02:00Z")
Why must everything that exists have a cause for its origins? ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/14 "2000-04-19T20:10:00Z")
pashley, given that my premise #1 is correct, my argument is exactly as logical as yours, since my steps 4-6 are your steps 1-3, and my steps 1-3 are your steps 1-3 restated. Each statment follows naturally from the statement before. So either your argument is also illogical (which it could easily be); or both of our arguments are logical but only one is correct. > [@](#): > > I disagree. Everything that does exist NECESSARILY must have been caused to exist. But caused by what? Beyond everything there is, there cannot be nothing. So far so good, as far as it goes, as long as it applies equally to any posited creator, but I have a feeling you’re about to offer yourself an out. > [@](#): > > So then, there must be something that is uncaused, and that something is that which everything else is dependent. Our existence, everything’s existence, was started, necessarily by something that was uncaused. God. And there it is. 🙂 “Necessarily”? I certainly question that premise, as well as the premise that, if there _is_ something uncaused, it cannot be the Universe itself as opposed to a creator. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/15 "2000-04-19T20:26:00Z")
[paraphrase] Everything that exists must have had a cause. That cause is God. God doesn’t have to follow rule 1 because that would lead to uncomfortable thoughts. Arguments that follow the form of mine but question the primacy of god are flawed. [/paraphrase] My comment? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/16 "2000-04-19T20:53:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Gaudere: > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > 1. Whatever begins to exist, has a cause for it’s coming into being (something cannot spontaeously come to be with a causing agent) > > False, according to current scientific experiments. An electron and anti-electron have been shown to pop out of nowhere with absolutely no discernable cause. > > > [@](#): > > > > 2)The cosmos began to exist. > > Are you speaking of the universe, i.e. everything that exists? If so, we have no proof that the universe has not always existed, and is not going through a boom-and-bust period of big bang/big crunch. > > If all things that exist cannot have always existed, then God would have had to begin to exist, and therefore by your logic (which is flawed, as I pointed out above) would need a creator. The difference between an always existing or spontaneously appearing universe and an always existing or spontaneously appearing God is that we have _far_ more evidence that the Universe exists. > > \*\* Again, see my post to Otto, if you believe something can come from nothing. You even say “no discernable cause”, from which you, in error, jump to the conclusion that there \* is no cause.\* As for your second argument, that the universe always was, well, that’s not what astrophysicists are espousing vis-a-vis the Big Bang theory. Your last point is my favorite. The first point, about a creator for God, is the infinite regress theory. Everything that exists is in space and time; we take up space, we move thru time. Things that are material (matter) are affected. You are, at least partially, made of material. This means you are finite, limited and changing being, for matter is a principle of limitation and change. Because you have limitations, you are dependent upon other things for your existence, such as air and water. If I take that away, surely you will change (die). You exist if something else is exists. But not everything can be like this. If it was, nothing would be able to cause the existence of something else. So, there must be something that does not exist conditionally; something which exists in itself. Since all things in this world are material, this “something” must necessarily exist outside of this world. Guess who? Your last, uh, point, suggests that since we cannot put God in a beaker, He cannot be. But if you see the above argument that He exists outside of our realm, you’ll know why, or you should. * * * Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/17 "2000-04-19T20:58:00Z")
Your logic states that God needed a creator. So who created God? _(I wonder who will be the first here to anser that with “Man.”)_ * * * Yer pal, Satan [http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif](http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif) _I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR: One week, three days, 18 hours, 58 minutes and 20 seconds. 431 cigarettes not smoked, saving $53.95. Life saved: 1 day, 11 hours, 55 minutes._ ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/18 "2000-04-19T20:59:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Spiritus Mundi: > \*\*[paraphrase] > Everything that exists must have had a cause. > > That cause is God. > > God doesn’t have to follow rule 1 because that would lead to uncomfortable thoughts. > > Arguments that follow the form of mine but question the primacy of god are flawed. > [/paraphrase] > > My comment? > HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA > > \*\* Spiritus, if you don’t have anything worthwhile to say, please don’t. I believe the Cartoon Channel in you area is Ch. 51 * * * Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/19 "2000-04-19T21:01:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by JonF: > \*\* …quantum mechanics can certainly be interpreted as refuting that statement; and quantum mechanics is _very_well established… > \*\* ## Can you elaborate? That is a little vague. Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/20 "2000-04-19T21:02:00Z")
Well, you’ve convinced me. I now firmly believe not only that God exists, but that this God is the particular Christian God who floods the world when He has a temper tantrum and murders babies to help His friends and will torture us forever if we don’t sing songs to Him once a week. So how do we go about defeating this evil being? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133.md?page=2)