# The Cosmos: Created , not by chance. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2000, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133 "2000-04-19T16:46:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2000, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/244 "2000-04-23T05:55:00Z")
Pashley: > [@](#): > > Why do you have a problem with someone demonstrating evidence of God? I can’t speak for Satan … personally, I have no problem with someone attemprting to demonstrate the existence of God. And I can conceive of demonstrations that are outside the realm of logic. I haven’t seen\* such demonstrations, mind you … {grin} Your attempt at a logical demonstration is flawed. That’s all I have said, and all that many others have said. I also grant that many others have used invective and irrelevancies. The fact that your argument is flawed does not disprove the existence of God. The fact that others have found the flaws in your argument is not evidence that they are trying to disprove the existence of God (although I suspect that some in this thread woudl love to do so). But you have made no attempt to modify your argument or support it. You’ve just restated it over and over and over and over again. Your argument is flawed. The manner of its flaws have been stated many times in many ways. Please either give it up or modify it. * * * jrf ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2000, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/245 "2000-04-23T05:57:00Z")
JonF: Now you’re just parsing words. You understand full well what I’m talking about. :: ---
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/246 "2000-04-22T18:05:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by CalifBoomer: > You understand full well what I’m talking about. I guess I don’t. Will you please elaborate for my benefit? ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/247 "2000-04-22T18:14:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Given the two alternatives, abiogenesis vs. creation, why is the former more probable than the latter? Considering there is no ‘evidence’ for either one, why lean toward abiogenesis, unless your are predisposed against creation? Yowza! Well worth a thread or two of its own. But I’ll leave it to more knowledgeable others to start such a thread. There **is** evidence that a _few_ of the steps required for abiogenesis do indeed occur under conditions similar to the early Earth. There are proposed pathways for abiogenesis. How plausible you find these pathways to be is a matter of individual opinion. I find them to be pretty plausible. The only evidence of which I am aware for Divine Creation is various ancient writings and some testimony of people (many of whom have potential conflict of interest) who claim to have talked to God or received signs from God. Personal testimony is notoriously unreliable (I can provide references if you wish, most of them related to the legal system). How much weight you put on the ancient writings is also a matter of personal opinion. I believe that the ancient writings contain much that is good, much that is true, much that is allegorical, and much that is flat-out contrary to the world as we perceive it (a trivial example being the diameter and circumfrence of the pool in the Temple, in which one could interpret the Bible as claiming the pi is three). I think the Genesis story falls in the allegorical category with a dash of untruth. That’s an opinion. I believe that the abiogenesis scenario is possible. I do not know how to calculate the _a priori_ probability, although I’ve seen a lot of calculations that were obviously flawed. Improbable things happen constantly. I see no way to calculate the _probability_ of Divine Creation. So I have a minor problem with your “why is the former more probable than the latter?”. It’s not really a matter for probability. I would have substituted “plausible” or “beleivable” for “probability”. So, my conclusion is that abiogenesis is likely and Divine Creation is unlikley. THat’s my personal conclusion. * * * jrf ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/248 "2000-04-22T18:21:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Now you’re just parsing words. You understand full well what I’m talking about. No, I guess I don’t. I have asked for proof of your claim that people on this board present our existence as proof for abiogenesis. Do you contend that you have provided such proof? I have twice explicitly acknowledged that I accept your contention that people on this board present abiogenesis as fact. Now I’ve done it three times. \*Nobody cares that you claimed that people on this board presented abiogenesis as fact!{/i] This is now the second time I have asked my question in amended form: _ **Who has claimed that the fact that we exist proves abiogenesis, and when?** _ If people have not done that, you have insulted them in a particulary agregious manner and you should apologize and acknowledge your error. If they have done that, I’d love to argue against them. * * * jrf ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/249 "2000-04-22T18:24:00Z")
Damn. Egregious, not agregious. * * * jrf ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/250 "2000-04-22T18:48:00Z")
I don’t see how any of this has anything to do with anything, but what the hay… > [@](#): > > Originally posted by paeshrus: > > \*\*You say you believe in a God, so why don’t you tell me a little bit about this? Do you belong to an organized religion? \*\* I have been doing quite a bit of spiritual searching lately. This has led me to a local Uniterian Universalist congregation. I do not consider myself a “member” yet, and I may decide that this particular church is not for me, but I am trying. > [@](#): > > \*\*If you believe in God, why do you: > > A) Have a screen name that depicts pure evil? \*\* Because I enjoy playing devil’s advocate, it allows for some really funny jokes (I like humor), and most importantly, shock value, which I find amusing. > [@](#): > > \*\*B) Why do you have a problem with someone demonstrating evidence of God? \*\* That is quite a loaded question. I will try and give it a complete answer: First of all, there is no empirical evidence of God, and any attempt at logical philosophy to come up with a similar conclusion is also guaranteed to not work. So, in the terms that you attempt to “prove” a God, I have a problem with it on a purely rational level because you can’t do it. On a spiritual plane, however, I have a problem with it because you cheapen God when you need to lie or believe in lies for Him. The whole purpose of faith is that you do not need evidence. You attempting to show (in various threads here) that Jesus Christ is the way by ways of a) illogical logic, b) creationists lies and c) lies about American history do nothing to glorify God, only cheapen Him. And also, this turns away a lot more people than it turns on. And since you are supposed to be a good witness, and you are supposed to turn people to God an not away, your methodology for “proving” God only results in going against what He preached. The proof for God I have is in my heart and soul. It’s the love I feel for people and things around me. It is the conversations I have with Him. This is my evidence. And as an experiment to show you that even the most anti-theistic person here, I will submit this qustion to David B: I say I believe in God because I have faith that He is there. I personally feel His presence. I know this with every fiber of my being. Can you prove me wrong, David? I am willing to bet Dave’s response will be something along the lines of, Fine. Because I am not asking him (and others) to believe because the moondust is not the correct depth. I am not asking him (and others) to believe because our founding fathers were this way. And I am not asking him (and others) to believe because of some convoluted philosophy. I am simply saying that _I_ believe, and no argument can take that away from me. And I also submit that if you were truly confident and secure in your faith, you would have no need to talk of moondust, founding fathers and logic problems. You would simply show that there is a God by - pay attenion here, this is important - BEING A GOOD WITNESS! Be a good person. Help people. Do some good in your community. You don’t like abortion? Adopt a child. You want to show how Christian you are? Quit screaming it on a fucking message board. Get out there and DO something positive! The Bible says that you should always aspire to act like Christ, and He did a lot of good, was not quick to anger, showed compassion, and frankly, I see more of that from my agnostic father than I see in most Christians I meet. > [@](#): > > \*\*C)Why do you have to shout that “you’ve won.”? Are you that childish? \*\* Read your first response when I asked the question. I simply treated you exactly as you deserved to be treated, exactly as you treated me. You treat me with kindness, you get the same. You treat me like shit and I’ll shit right back at you. Argue with logic and fairness an I will do my best to reciprocate. > [@](#): > > \*\*D)Why do you have to bash me by saying you are holier than thou? \*\* When you come in here and say you’re a Christian, then show anything BUT Christian behavior, I am going to call you on it. If it just so happens that I do this by showing that even I, a non-Christian am not acting in the manner you are, I do this not to lift myself above you, but simply to show you that you are not doing what God expects of you, by he standards you claim to follow. > [@](#): > > \*\*E) If you are such a pious man, why don’t you ever defend the notion of God? Not just my argument, but at anytime? \*\* You really don’t know anything about me. Well, you can start by [clicking this link](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001670.html), which tells a little bit about the way I feel. > [@](#): > > \*\*F) Why should I take crap from somebody that calls themselves Christian, yet takes the name of Satan? \*\* As I said, I never said I was a Christian. But I do believe in God. I have already explained why I took thi name. If that is not enough to please you, I am sorry, but pleaing you is not something I feel I need to do. If I do, that’s great! But I won’t lose any sleep over not pleasing someone who doesn’t even know me. > [@](#): > > **YOU are the one of meek faith; a coward that when push comes to shove, won’t stand up for God - any God. You’re this BBS’s equivalent of Judas!** I have stood up for God when appropriate. I have not done his with lies, plageurism and anger. I have done this by living my life in a way that I don’t think displeases Him. Notice, I said Him. Not you. If you wish to discuss this further, feel free to take it to e-mail. This is painfully off-topic as it is, and I am sorry to anyone here who is upset because fo this hijacking. * * * Yer pal, Satan [http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif](http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif) _Still not smoking, but away from my meter!_ ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/251 "2000-04-22T18:55:00Z")
> [@](#): > > The fact that your argument is flawed does not disprove the existence of God. The fact that others have found the flaws in your argument is not evidence that they are trying to disprove the existence of God THANK you. This is what I’ve been saying all along. I am not attacking God, or trying to disprove the existence of God. In fact, I believe that God exists, as do quite a few other people who have debated with pashley in this thread. I am attacking the logic of this particular “proof,” and nothing more. Pashley is getting way too defensive, considering that’s all we’re doing. This is not some sort of atheist conspiracy–we’re only showing errors in logic. Frankly, I disagree with people who feel the need to PROVE that God exists. God is not an issue of logic, because the entire concept of God is beyond our paltry human comprehension. No human logic or reasoning can apply to God, because God is beyond the physical laws of the universe as we know them. The acceptance or refusal of the existence of God is an issue of faith and faith alone. I have no problem with people who trumpet their faith from the rooftops. But the moment you feel the need to apply man’s restrictions to God, you will only set yourself up for failure. God is beyond puny attempts at logical proofs of his existence. I’m sure God is up there somewhere reading this thread and chuckling. Keep the faith, pashley, but if you feel the need to prove it, don’t listen. In proving that God exists, the only thing you can listen to is your own heart. ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/252 "2000-04-22T18:59:00Z")
JonF: > [@](#): > > So, my conclusion is that abiogenesis is likely and Divine Creation is unlikley. THat’s my personal conclusion. The notion that everything created itself out of nothing holds no appeal for me because it does not make sense. Everything that exists in the physical world around us has a precursor, a creator. Things simply do not come into being on their own without some outside influence. The implications of such a view are that the universe and all it contains proceed nowhere and have no value. I simply cannot accept this premise. To assert abiogenesis as probable fact indicates a philosophy rather than a scientifically supportable point of view. Pointing to the plausibility of a ‘few of the steps’ toward abiogenesis, then leaping to the conclusion of fact is more of a leap of faith than supportable science. Were abiogenesis true, we should be able to replicate it at will. We cannot, and IMO, never will. There is the possibility that some things are simply _unknoweable._ This should not stop us from searching and questioning, but while so doing, remaining honest in our motives. It occurs to me that the _belief_ that everything created itself out of nothing is not different than the _belief_ that there is a creator. In the absence of demonstrable evidence, both require leaps of faith. Sure, we may be able to link increasing observed phenomena together on a cause and effect basis, but we remain nonetheless at the same impasse- **where did it all come from?** My conclusion is that it all came from a creator, who I call God. :: ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/253 "2000-04-22T19:07:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Everything that exists in the physical world around us has a precursor, a creator. Well, I might agree with precursor, but not creator. Virtual particles again … Yet every step in the proposed abiogenesis pathway has a precursor, so I don’t see how you can reject it on those grounds. And, of course, maybe life came from someplace that neither of us has considered or can imagine. Oh, by the way, who claims that our existence is proof of abiogenesis? I agree that belief in abiogenesis requires some faith, but I see it as hardly a leap. Beleiving in Divine Creation, now {i]there’s\* a brad-jump of faith! (At least for me.) {grin} * * * jrf ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/254 "2000-04-22T19:18:00Z")
JonF: Fine. We have a difference of opinion and have come to different conclusions based on our own logic and personal belief systems. You maintain your belief system is more valid than mine. I don’t have a problem with that. What I have a big problem with is the childish arrogance displayed by the David B’s of the world who assert than any belief system _other than their own_ is nothing more than stupidity and ought to be held to ridicule. That particular opinion indicates a complete lack of objectivity and only serves to promote ignorance and intolerance. :: ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/255 "2000-04-22T20:31:00Z")
Calfboomer: OK by me. But I can’t resist another poke: you posted an insulting claim, saying that people have claimes that abiogenesis is proved by our existence. You have ignored all challenges to that claim. DavidB at least responds … * * * jrf ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/256 "2000-04-22T20:37:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Satan: > \*\*I have been doing quite a bit of spiritual searching lately. This has led me to a local Uniterian Universalist congregation. I do not consider myself a “member” yet, and I may decide that this particular church is not for me, but I am trying > > \*\* No, I asked you what _organized religion_ you might be long to. ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/257 "2000-04-22T21:03:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Drain Bead: > \*\* …I am attacking the logic of this particular “proof,” and nothing more. Pashley is getting way too defensive, considering that’s all we’re doing. This is not some sort of atheist conspiracy–we’re only showing errors in logic. > > Frankly, I disagree with people who feel the need to PROVE that God exists. God is not an issue of logic, because the entire concept of God is beyond our paltry human comprehension.\*\* Drain, Actually, you and I, I believe, have some common ground. First, thanks for the post that comes across as discussive, not caustic. I too, KNOW that I cannot _prove that God exists_. Did everyone hear that? I cannot _prove that God exists_. He is above our reality. However, I do believe we can provide logical arguments that either _mildly suggest_ (the argument from the Origin of the Idea of God, Descartes),or _strongly suggest_ (the argument from Efficent Causality)that God, in fact exists. I am discussing the latter with Nen in the “Goliath” thread. If you think I am getting defensive, well, yeah, when several people assail me unprovoked. I want to _discuss_ topics, not argue like drunk Marines. See, I’m not some wimpy christian that just lies down and takes a beating from some of these cowards. I don’t have a problem defending my faith. Regarding the last paragraph, why do you have a problem with someone discussing evidence for, or discussing arguments for the existence of God? I agree, that HE is beyond or comprehension, but not beyond our ability to detect HE is there; His nature _may_ be unknowable, but I believe the dectection of his presence is not unknowable. If you disagree, that’s fine, I respect that. Yes, faith is the true bridge to HIM. ## Happy Easter, man. Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/259 "2000-04-22T21:52:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by pashley: > I am discussing the latter with Nen in the “Goliath” thread. It would be more accurate to state the we will be discussing the latter. You have not yet presented said argument in that thread. ---
**Author:** ![JDeMobray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@JDeMobray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDeMobray)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/260 "2000-04-22T21:54:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by CalifBoomer: > **Given the two alternatives, abiogenesis vs. creation, why is the former more probable than the latter?** I’m going to go ahead and guess Occam. Let me know if I’m right, will you? By the way, I am _ **STILL** _ waiting for your positive evidence in favor of special creation, since you agreed that negation of abiogenisis does not in any way strengthen your position. ---
**Author:** ![Dumb\_Ox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dumb\_Ox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumb_Ox)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/261 "2000-04-22T22:02:00Z")
Responding to **Satan’s** reference to the Universalist Unitarian Church, **Pashley** said > [@](#): > > No, I asked you what _organized religion_ you might be long to. This is the most supremely hilarious post on this entire thread. Problem is, I don’t know if it’s supposed to a joke or an insult. Know why? **NO SMILIES!!** :mad: Pashley, use the smilies! That’s why God made them! 🙂 (See, now _that_ was a joke.) End of rant. ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/262 "2000-04-22T22:06:00Z")
JdeMobray: > [@](#): > > By the way, I am STILL waiting for your positive evidence in favor of special creation, since you agreed that negation of abiogenisis does not in any way strengthen your position. As I wait for the great rational brain of man through his almighty science to answer the simple question- where did it all come from? What’s that you say? _Science does not have the answer?_ Gasp! Oh, wait, we’re only descended from apes. Of course we don’t have the answer. But we’ll pretend we do anyway. :: ---
**Author:** ![JDeMobray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@JDeMobray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDeMobray)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/263 "2000-04-22T22:08:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Dumb Ox: > \*\*This is the most supremely hilarious post on this entire thread. Problem is, I don’t know if it’s supposed to a joke or an insult. . . Pashley, use the smilies! That’s why God made them! 🙂 (See, now _that_ was a joke.) > > End of rant. > > \*\* Yeah, I used to think Pashley was kidding sometimes too. . . . 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JDeMobray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@JDeMobray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDeMobray)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/264 "2000-04-22T22:11:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by CalifBoomer: > \*\*JdeMobray: > As I wait for the great rational brain of man through his almighty science to answer the simple question- where did it all come from? > \*\* Ah, I see. So earlier in the thread when you agreed that special creation was the “outsider theory”, and thereby the burden of proof rests on it’s supporters. . . .that was all just a put-on. Dumb Ox was right when he said you guys really need to learn when to use smileys 😉 _sheesh_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133.md?page=14)