# The Cosmos: Created , not by chance. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2000, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133 "2000-04-19T16:46:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Celt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8491ac/32.png) [@Celt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celt)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2000, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/306 "2000-04-25T04:27:00Z")
Scylla: I thought I said you had not asserted abiogenesis as fact. Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2000, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/307 "2000-04-25T05:18:00Z")
Well I tried to C&P only Celt’s post, but having Scylla’s here as well seems … appropriate. > [@](#): > > ## Scylla Member Posts: 809 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-24-2000 06:52 PM > > CB: > No, the one after that where you misquoted me on Abiogenesis. > > IP: Logged > > ## Celt Member **Posts: 1** Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-24-2000 11:27 PM > > Scylla: > I thought I said you had not asserted abiogenesis as fact. Is that correct? (bolding mine) Now why would somebody writing his very first post make reference to a prior statement by himself? Hey, **CB,** is that a sock puppet in your pocket or are you just happy to see me? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2000, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/308 "2000-04-25T05:23:00Z")
oh, poop. Gaudere, or Davud B, could you please edit my last post, eliminating the last ten of the hyphens in each of those dotted lines? I’m very sorry, and it won’t happen again. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2000, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/309 "2000-04-25T12:19:00Z")
[Moderator Hat: ON] CalifBoomer said: > [@](#): > > It was my understanding that these sorts of personal attacks were not appropriate in any other forum, and certainly not in GB from a moderator. Personal attacks are not allowed. However, you didn’t quote any. Wally said that your _statement_ is moronic, not you. I said you were a liar, which has never been considered to be an “insult” here (or in any of the previous message conferences I have ever moderated, for that matter). If you don’t want people to call you a liar, show that they are wrong. * * * David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator [Moderator Hat: OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2000, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/310 "2000-04-25T13:00:00Z")
Celt: Actually we have never spoken before. Assuming you are CB, you did indeed misrepresent my quote. I certainly did not make any refutation of abiogenesis. Are you changing your name, or did you make a mistake there? * * * “Don’t just stand there in Uffish thought!” -The Caterpillar ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2000, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/311 "2000-04-25T15:20:00Z")
Well, that’s TWO sock puppets making errors in one thread. When will this shit ever end?!? Funny how those who don’t know how to debate at all are th ones who invent imaginary friends to back them up. :rolleyes: * * * Yer pal, Satan [http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif](http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif) _I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR: Two weeks, two days, 13 hours, 20 minutes and 5 seconds. 662 cigarettes not smoked, saving $82.78. Life saved: 2 days, 7 hours, 10 minutes._ ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/312 "2000-04-26T00:11:00Z")
Having been caught red handed in **CLEAR** violation of the rules, I must honorably resign. :: ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/313 "2000-04-26T00:40:00Z")
You guys went all physics on me, so I’ve only been skimming this thread. However, back on page 5 **CaBoom** said, in his “abiogenesis” post: > [@](#): > > All these statements were made within the context of promoting abiogenesis as probable fact, in spite of DrFidelius’ and Scylla’s evidence to the contrary. Now, much as I appreciate being cited as a respected authority, **CaBoom** seems to have neglected to provide a quote where I present evidence contrary to abiogenesis. I would even accept pointing out somewhere I had said “We aren’t sure yet.” I am certain this oversight will be corrected. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/314 "2000-04-26T00:43:00Z")
Sorry. That should properly read “respected opinion” or “recognized authority”. I hate it when I conflate my cliches. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/315 "2000-04-26T00:46:00Z")
I could cite you as a “recognized opinion”, if you like… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/316 "2000-04-26T01:23:00Z")
Well, that’s one way out of having to concede a point. What a comedy of errors Possibly the funniest thing I’ve seen all week. You’ve made my day CB, and I mean that in a good way. That was the most spectacular instance of intellectual suicide I’ve ever witnessesed. * * * “Don’t just stand there in Uffish thought!” -The Caterpillar ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/317 "2000-04-26T02:08:00Z")
Dr. Fidelius: In his “abiogenesis” post CB is referring to one of our discussions in an earlier thread. I had hypothesized that the abiogenesis event here on Earth was precipitated by the visit of a Giant Intergalactic Turtle (This then is a GIT theory) who suffered indigestion while visiting this planet, thus priming the pump with organic matter. You on the other hand maintained that we are descended from the Gnomes who hid the Dinosaur bones. Hope this clears things up. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/318 "2000-04-26T02:33:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by CalifBoomer: > \*\*Having been caught red handed in **CLEAR** violation of the rules, I must honorably resign. > > ::\*\* See also “Celt.” Quoting from the registration agreement: > [@](#): > > Only one screen name is permitted per user. If you wish to change screen names please notify the webmaster and we will deactivate your old screen name. Use of multiple screen names is grounds for revocation of your right to post under ANY screen name. your humble TubaDiva Administrator The Straight Dope Now returning you to your regularly scheduled debate. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/319 "2000-04-26T02:42:00Z")
**pashley** and **CalfBoomer** banned on the same day! If that ain’t a miracle, I don’t know what is. 😉 * * * \>\ \_ **L\_\_\_L** He’s _back!_ ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/320 "2000-04-26T02:57:00Z")
**CalifBoomer** and **pashley** gone on the same day. If that ain’t a miracle, I don’t know what is. 😉 * * * \>\ \_ **L\_\_\_L** He’s _back!_ ---
**Author:** ![JUSTUS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b2d939/32.png) [@JUSTUS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JUSTUS)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/321 "2000-04-26T03:16:00Z")
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Spiritus Mundi: \*\*[paraphrase] Everything that exists must have had a cause. That cause is God. God doesn’t have to follow rule 1 because that would lead to uncomfortable thoughts. Arguments that follow the form of mine but question the primacy of god are flawed. [/paraphrase] My comment? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA I would like to state the Following 1 - I believe that there is GOD 2 - I believe that the Universe was created\* and has a design and ultimate purpose \*(Caused to be by forces outside of this physical reality) 3- I believe that sentient / intelligent life is a special unique product of the universe endowed with a spark of the divine 4 - I believe that I posses within me a part of that divine spark. Therefore I am compelled out of respect and love for items 1 thru 3 to conduct myself in a certain (moral if you will) manner. 5 - I believe that all Humans are similarly endowed. The above points are given only as a prelude for my response to Author Topic: The Cosmos: Created , not by chance. pashley Member Posts: 248 Registered: Sep 1999 posted 04-19-2000 11:46 AM 1. Whatever begins to exist, has a cause for it’s coming into being (something c3)Therefore, the universe has a cause for its coming into being. (God) Arguments? * * * Patrick Ashley Mr Ashley, While my stated beliefs may appear to be in agreement with you they are in opposition to your implied conclusions. Please answer the following direct questions. I would like to know what is your basis for placing so much FAITH in your bible. Please do not give me it is the written word of God therefore routine. I would like to know by what gift of intellect / revelation , process of investigation has led you to accept your bible as the only source of GOD. Why have you sought to limit / define / own and control God. That you must certainly do by ignoring the possibility of GOD being something other than what you believe and thus outside of your ability to influence (why else continual state Jesus is the only way)? Why have you placed the wonder and majesty of the Universe into a shell? Why is it necessary to separate the spiritual and material realms. Could they not be connected in some manner we do not understand. This existence perhaps is a transition stage with neither beginning nor end (constant flux / equilibrium). Why have you decide that the value of sentient life is but a mere addendum to your belief structure. (All have sinned and if you are not like me you are going to Hell) My reaction is Not because of what you state but rather the fact that the source of authority that you presume entails you to such liberties is based on a wholly unnatural constructed (if you will evolved) document. I hold that your bible ( yes I know this is a blanket statement as there are countless versions) contains within its writings some very profound spiritual thoughts that have been buried beneath so many layers of obvious after the fact manipulation they are hardly recognizable. What are your thoughts on [http://www.cuttingedge.org/n1034.html](http://www.cuttingedge.org/n1034.html) God and Evolution Copyright © 1994-1998 by Warren Kurt VonRoeschlaub and Magisterium Is Concerned with Question of Evolution For It Involves Conception of Man Pope John Paul II Message to Pontifical Academy of Sciences October 22, 1996 [http://www.cin.org/jp2evolu.html](http://www.cin.org/jp2evolu.html) I request only that you respond in specifics. * * * I believe in neither the Religion of Science nor the Science of Religion ---
**Author:** ![JUSTUS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b2d939/32.png) [@JUSTUS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JUSTUS)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/322 "2000-04-26T03:40:00Z")
[QUOTE] Originally posted by pashley: \*\*1) Whatever begins to exist, has a cause for it’s coming into being (something cannot spontaeously come to be with a causing agent) 2)The cosmos began to exist. 3)Therefore, the universe has a cause for its coming into being. (God) Arguments? : YES ----------------- I would like to state the Following 1 - I believe that there is GOD 2 - I believe that the Universe was created\* and has a design and ultimate purpose \*(Caused to be by forces outside of this physical reality) 3- I believe that sentient / intelligent life is a special unique product of the universe endowed with a spark of the divine 4 - I believe that I posses within me a part of that divine spark. Therefore I am compelled out of respect and love for items 1 thru 3 to conduct myself in a certain (moral if you will) manner. 5 - I believe that all Humans are similarly endowed. The above points are given only as a prelude for my response Mr Ashley, While my stated beliefs may appear to be in agreement with you they are in opposition to your implied conclusions. Please answer the following direct questions. I would like to know what is your basis for placing so much FAITH in your bible. Please do not give me it is the written word of God therefore routine. I would like to know by what gift of intellect / revelation , process of investigation has led you to accept your bible as the only source of GOD. Why have you sought to limit / define / own and control God. That you must certainly do by ignoring the possibility of GOD being something other than what you believe and thus outside of your ability to influence (why else continual state Jesus is the only way)? Why have you placed the wonder and majesty of the Universe into a shell? Why is it necessary to separate the spiritual and material realms. Could they not be connected in some manner we do not understand. This existence perhaps is a transition stage with neither beginning nor end (constant flux / equilibrium). Why have you decide that the value of sentient life is but a mere addendum to your belief structure. (All have sinned and if you are not like me you are going to Hell) My reaction is Not because of what you state but rather the fact that the source of authority that you presume entails you to such liberties is based on a wholly unnatural constructed (if you will evolved) document. I hold that your bible ( yes I know this is a blanket statement as there are countless versions) contains within its writings some very profound spiritual thoughts that have been buried beneath so many layers of obvious after the fact manipulation they are hardly recognizable. What are your thoughts / feelings on [http://www.cuttingedge.org/n1034.html](http://www.cuttingedge.org/n1034.html) God and Evolution Copyright © 1994-1998 by Warren Kurt VonRoeschlaub Magisterium Is Concerned with Question of Evolution For It Involves Conception of Man Pope John Paul II ## Message to Pontifical Academy of Sciences October 22, 1996 PLEASE RESPOND IN SPECIFICS I believe in neither the Religion of Science nor the Science of Religion ---
**Author:** ![JUSTUS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b2d939/32.png) [@JUSTUS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JUSTUS)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/323 "2000-04-26T03:47:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by pashley: > \*\*1) Whatever begins to exist, has a cause for it’s coming into being (something cannot spontaeously come to be with a causing agent) > > 2)The cosmos began to exist. > > 3)Therefore, the universe has a cause for its coming into being. (God) > > Arguments? > > \*\* YES--------------- Part 1 What are your thoughts / fellings on [http://www.cuttingedge.org/n1034.html](http://www.cuttingedge.org/n1034.html) God and Evolution Copyright © 1994-1998 by Warren Kurt VonRoeschlaub Magisterium Is Concerned with Question of Evolution For It Involves Conception of Man Pope John Paul II Message to Pontifical Academy of Sciences October 22, 1996 [http://www.cin.org/jp2evolu.html](http://www.cin.org/jp2evolu.html) I would like to state the Following 1 - I believe that there is GOD 2 - I believe that the Universe was created\* and has a design and ultimate purpose \*(Caused to be by forces outside of this physical reality) 3- I believe that sentient / intelligent life is a special unique product of the universe endowed with a spark of the divine 4 - I believe that I posses within me a part of that divine spark. Therefore I am compelled out of respect and love for items 1 thru 3 to conduct myself in a certain (moral if you will) manner. 5 - I believe that all Humans are similarly endowed. The above points are given only as a prelude for my response (cont’d) Part 2 * * * I believe in neither the Religion of Science nor the Science of Religion ---
**Author:** ![JUSTUS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b2d939/32.png) [@JUSTUS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JUSTUS)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/324 "2000-04-26T04:05:00Z")
My Apologies this is directed to like your response… I would like to state the Following 1 - I believe that there is GOD 2 - I believe that the Universe was created\* and has a design and ultimate purpose \*(Caused to be by forces outside of this physical reality) 3- I believe that sentient / intelligent life is a special unique product of the universe endowed with a spark of the divine 4 - I believe that I posses within me a part of that divine spark. Therefore I am compelled out of respect and love for items 1 thru 3 to conduct myself in a certain (moral if you will) manner. 5 - I believe that all Humans are similarly endowed. The above points are given only as a prelude. Author Topic: The Cosmos: Created , not by chance. pashley Member Posts: 248 Registered: Sep 1999 posted 04-19-2000 11:46 AM 1. Whatever begins to exist, has a cause for it’s coming into being (something cannot spontaneously come to be with a causing agent) 2)The cosmos began to exist. 3)Therefore, the universe has a cause for its coming into being. (God) Arguments? * * * Patrick Ashley Mr Ashley, While my stated beliefs may appear to be in agreement with you they are in opposition to your implied conclusions. Please answer the following direct questions. I would like to know what is your basis for placing so much FAITH in your bible. Please do not give me it is the written word of God therefore routine. I would like to know by what gift of intellect / revelation , process of investigation has led you to accept your bible as the only source of GOD. Part 1 of 4 * * * I believe in neither the Religion of Science nor the Science of Religion ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2000, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/325 "2000-04-26T04:06:00Z")
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