# The Cosmos: Created , not by chance. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2000, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133 "2000-04-19T16:46:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/21 "2000-04-19T21:03:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by JonF: > \*\*Oh, and one more thing; if nothing can come into being without a causative agent, where did God come from? Or do you beleive she’s an exception to the rule? > > \*\* Please see the first reply to Otto. * * * Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/22 "2000-04-19T21:05:00Z")
> [@](#): > > . You even say “no discernable cause”, from which you, in error, jump to the conclusion that there is no cause. Well, you, in error, assume that since some things appear to have a discernable cause, that all things must, even when they appear not to. It is _you_ who is too hasty. > [@](#): > > As for your second argument, that the universe always was, well, that’s not what astrophysicists are espousing vis-a-vis the Big Bang theory. I brought up a boom-and-bust cycle of big bang/big crunch. Do you even read the posts you quote? It is a perfectly possible theory, and we cannot prove or disprove it since we do not know what happened “before” the big bang, or even if there _was_ a “before”. And while I’m here… [Moderator Hat ON] Please do _not_ quote the entire post if you are only responding to a few points that can be excerpted; you have quite a habit of doing this. It is annoying to those who read your posts, not to mention it makes your posts unnecessarily lengthy. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/23 "2000-04-19T21:05:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Larry Borgia: > **Why must everything that exists have a cause for its origins?** See the first reply to Otto… * * * Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/24 "2000-04-19T21:10:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by pldennison: > \*\*…And there it is. 🙂 “Necessarily”? I certainly question that premise, as well as the premise that, if there _is_ something uncaused, it cannot be the Universe itself as opposed to a creator. > > \*\* ## Not really sure what you are saying. I think my first reply to Gaudere will answer what you are asking/questioning. Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/25 "2000-04-19T21:11:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Satan: > \*\*Your logic states that God needed a creator. So who created God? > > _(I wonder who will be the first here to anser that with “Man.”)_ > > \*\* Does anyone read before they post? See my reply to Gaudere, on the infiite regress problem. * * * Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/26 "2000-04-19T21:13:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by manhattan: > \*\*Well, you’ve convinced me. I now firmly believe not only that God exists, but that this God is the particular Christian God who floods the world when He has a temper tantrum and murders babies to help His friends and will torture us forever if we don’t sing songs to Him once a week. > > So how do we go about defeating this evil being?\*\* Ok, in your area, I believe ZOOM! is on channel 32. If you don’t have anything worthwhile to say, don’t bother. * * * Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/27 "2000-04-19T21:14:00Z")
**Pashley** Just because you say everyting must have a beginning does not make it so. You say this and so your logic says there must be a cause. Nobody I know and probably nobody you know has the ability to understand what existance completely outside time is like. For anything to have no beginning and no end it must exist outside the constraints of time **if** if that is possible. If you can provide proof of how this has been achieved you would have the ear of every scientist on earth. Even if it is possible to exist in such a manner this does not provide proof of God the creator it merely proves the existance of another environment. ---
**Author:** ![cher3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cher3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cher3)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/28 "2000-04-19T21:16:00Z")
Pashley, the reason people keep asking you the same question is that your “first reply to Otto” doesn’t answer it. You essentially say that things which exist must have a cause because they must. That’s neither logical nor an answer. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/29 "2000-04-19T21:16:00Z")
I read your response to Otto. I know that you assert that everything that Exists must “NECESSAIRILY” have a cause. I just want to know why? * * * Perked Ears indicate curiosity - Know Your Cat ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/30 "2000-04-19T21:17:00Z")
JINX!! ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/31 "2000-04-19T21:19:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Gaudere: > Well, you, in error, assume that since some things appear to have a discernable cause, that all things must, even when they appear not to. It is _you_ who is too hasty. Can you name me something that appears not to have a discernable cause? How can you rationally argue that things can come into being on their own? Absurd. > [@](#): > > I brought up a boom-and-bust cycle of big bang/big crunch. Do you even read the posts you quote? It is a perfectly possible theory, and we cannot prove or disprove it since we do not know what happened “before” the big bang, or even if there _was_ a “before”. I _guess_ what you’re saying is…no, i don’t have a guess. ## If you are espousing the Big Bang, how did the material that “banged” come to be? Just happened out of nothing? No. Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![hardcore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@hardcore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardcore)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/32 "2000-04-19T21:20:00Z")
pashley preached: > [@](#): > > As for your second argument, that the universe always was, well, that’s not what astrophysicists are espousing vis-a-vis the Big Bang theory. This simply isn’t true. Astrophysicists cannot know what happened prior to the Big Bang, but they don’t rule the “Big Crunch” out. True, there doesn’t appear to be enough mass to reverse the current expansion of the universe, but perhaps we just don’t know enough yet. Pashley, you think God came into being without a creator, scientists think the universe did. Believe in an invisible, imaginary deity all you want, but don’t make yourself look foolish by trying to prove its existence logically. ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/33 "2000-04-19T21:31:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by casdave: > \*\* **Pashley** > > Just because you say everyting must have a beginning does not make it so. > > You say this and so your logic says there must be a cause. > > For anything to have no beginning and no end it must exist outside the constraints of time **if** if that is possible. > > Even if it is possible to exist in such a manner this does not provide proof of God the creator it merely proves the existance of another environment. > > \*\* Yes, everything that has a beginning MUST have been caused by something to cause it to be. Nothing comes into being without something _causing_ it to come to be. It’s illogical, not just my say so. And if you read earlier posts, you’d see that I argued that this agent that created our world must exist outside of it. You last statement is puzzling. How can an “environment” create another world? Not sure where you are going with that… * * * Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/34 "2000-04-19T21:34:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Can you name me something that appears not to have a discernable cause? How can you rationally argue that things can come into being on their own? Absurd. I _did_ in my very first post! Electrons and anti-electrons will appear out of a vaccuum. Also, quatum effects appear to happen without cause. Some things appear to have a cause; some things appear to not have a cause. I don’t know why you accept the appearence of causality and reject the appearence of non-causality. (Well, aside from poor logic.) BTW, I appreciate you quoting excerpts, instead of the whole post. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/35 "2000-04-19T21:43:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I believe the Cartoon Channel in you area is Ch. 51 Yet another instance in which your belief is false. How appropriate. * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/36 "2000-04-19T21:45:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by cher3: > \*\*Pashley, the reason people keep asking you the same question is that your “first reply to Otto” doesn’t answer it. You essentially say that things which exist must have a cause because they must. > > That’s neither logical nor an answer.\*\* I _have_ answered their concerns. And yes, things that exist came into existence by another agent. That _ **is** _ logical and valid. If you disagree, A) give an example of something that comes from nothing, and B) explain how that happens. * * * Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/37 "2000-04-19T21:46:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Spiritus, if you don’t have anything worthwhile to say, please don’t. Physician, heal thyself. You might have spared the world this entire thread. * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/38 "2000-04-19T21:51:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by hardcore: > \*\* > > Pashley, you think God came into being without a creator, scientists think the universe did. Believe in an invisible, imaginary deity all you want, but don’t make yourself look foolish by trying to prove its existence logically.\*\* Hardcore, have you read my arguments? I’m assuming you haven’t, or else you would not have posted this. * * * Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/39 "2000-04-19T21:53:00Z")
[pashley cap on] All things that exist must have had a cause. It is illogical to think otherwise. The universe exists and must have a cause – this cause is God. Regression of first cause would make my position uncomfortable, therefore God must exist “outside of time” and “in itself”. I do not need to explain what this means or how it answers questions of what caused “God” – see my first response to Otto. [pashley cap off] ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/40 "2000-04-19T21:54:00Z")
Oh, you want something _worthwhile_. How about this? There is no God. People made him up. They told stories to each other to try to make sense of a complicated world or to enforce rules of morality on themselves and their neighbors or to justify their murderous forays into other lands. You may or not be aware that other people have made up entirely different Gods for the same purposes. They don’t exist, either. The God to whom you refer did not create the universe, he did not kill everyone in the world after a temper tantrum, he did not murder the firstborn of Egypt, he didn’t knock up any virgins. He is exactly as real as the tooth fairy. You, having been brainwashed by people who want to control your life by fooling you into believing that you will be tortured forever if you don’t sing songs to the tooth fairy once each week, are now trying to repeat the process with us by inventing from whole cloth a “proof” that some sort of evil being exists. Here, we have a higher standard than that. If you want to believe, believe. Heck, some of my favorite people, including many on this board, _one of whom is posting to this very thread_, believe. But don’t you dare come around and try to co-opt logic and science to try to “prove” that the tooth fairy exists. If you are so insecure in your alleged “faith” in this monster that you feel you have to twist into knots the precepts of logic and science, that’s your problem. Dammit, where’s **Polycarp**? I actually kind of liked _his_ God. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133.md?page=3)