# The Cosmos: Created , not by chance. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2000, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133 "2000-04-19T16:46:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/164 "2000-04-21T20:15:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by pashley: > Here’s the deal: I will enter, but if I see some stupid-ass adolescent comment by some moron, I’m done. I don’t need to deal with jerks like that. I would also find the type of comments you described inappropriate in such a forum. I think that I may disagree what constitutes that type of comment. I don’t find posts such as “I’m here, who’s got the beer?” offensive, but simply MPSIMS-esque in nature. I do agree that something to the effect of “Hey, (insert name here). You’re an @#%ing @#%!” is inappropriate. Do you concur? Please enter. ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/165 "2000-04-21T20:20:00Z")
Well Satan, you still can’t read/let the logic sink in, so I’m not going to bother with you. And why should I take advice from a “Christian” who doesn’t defend his faith, spits on others that do, and has the name “SATAN” as a board name? You hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/166 "2000-04-21T20:22:00Z")
Odds that Patrick will completely ignore Satan’s last post: 3:1 Odds that Patrick will respond with obfuscation: 4:1 Odds that Patrick will respond with obfuscation and insult: 1.5:1 Odds that Patrick will make an honest attempt to answer Satan’s concerns and questions without taking offense: 1,280,832:1 -a- ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/167 "2000-04-21T20:22:00Z")
> [@](#): > > “HI, DUH, MY NAME IS SATAN, I’M A BAD-ASS!” Come on, Brian, I think we’ve found your new sig line. pashley: There’s an old saying you should consider: “If ten people tell you you’re drunk, go lie down.” There’s also another truism I’ve learned in a lot of years of teaching and being taught–if the entire class doesn’t understand something, it’s probably because the teacher didn’t explain it very well. There is nothing worse than a teacher who, when asked a legitimate question, says, “I already explained that.” I, for one, am no idiot, and I still don’t really understand 1.)Why God is exempt from the “everything must have a cause” rule, and 2.)why your proof would lead one to God, rather than, say, Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, or Zeus, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn, or the Great Green Arkleseizure. I really don’t know what you expected, since you came on here and claim to have single-handedly and conclusively done what generation after generation of philosophers have failed to do. I guess you thought we’d all say, “Gee whiz, I never thought about it like that. Praise Jesus!” If you were really interested in making your point, you would take more care to explain your position, instead of berating everyone for failing to understand your airtight logic. Dr. J * * * “Seriously, baby, I can prescribe anything I want!” -Dr. Nick Riviera ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/168 "2000-04-21T20:31:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Great Green Arkleseizure Hmph. You nasal-creationists really chap my hide. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/169 "2000-04-21T20:36:00Z")
**Pashley** , you have now been provided two legitimate fora for your debate: **SingleDad** by e-mail or **Nen** in the forum established. (If you will look around **GD** , you will note that there are many threads that have multiple discussions in progress. The only thing you have to do in **Nen** ’s forum is ignore any comments from the peanut gallery and ask that **Nen** do the same within that discussion. There is no need to act like a _prima donna_ and demand the the chairs be set one way and the lectern be turned another. Just enter the discussion, address all remarks only to **Nen** and ask that **Nen** not quote or respondto any poster but you.) Either accept one of the challenges, or please stop whining. * * * Tom~ ["…turtles all the way down."] ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/170 "2000-04-21T20:39:00Z")
Pashley, OK, I’ll admit it. I’m an idiot. Your explanation of why every event must have a cause soared over my head. However I admit my ignorance and am willing to learn. Please then explain again why every event must have a cause. Don’t worry about going into great detail or using small words. I wont be offended, it’s the only way I’ll learn. Although I’m an idiot I once heard a really smart guy (though not as smart as you, of course!) talk about something called the “fallacy of induction.” I’m not sure I remember it but I think it said something like if you see an event occur n number of times it does not neccessairily mean that it will occur the same way on the n plus 1th time. Seeing a thousand black ravens does not preclude a white (albino) raven. However I’m sure I’ve gotten it wrong. It does seem to my idiotic self that the common sense notion of everything having a cause arises from our mundane (in both senses of the word) experience. However the origin of the universe is such an exotic phenomenon, I’m not sure our earthly common sense applies. But I know I’m wrong. Also, I’ll give you quantum mechanics. Since I barely understand philosophy, I don’t want to get into a discussion of particles. Therefore I’ll let you take that off the table. I eagerly await my enlightenment at your hands. * * * Perked Ears indicate curiosity - Know Your Cat ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/171 "2000-04-21T20:41:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by DoctorJ: > \*\* > I, for one, am no idiot, and I still don’t really understand 1.)Why God is exempt from the “everything must have a cause” rule, and 2.)why your proof would lead one to God, rather than, say, Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, or Zeus, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn, or the Great Green Arkleseizure. > > I really don’t know what you expected, since you came on here and claim to have single-handedly and conclusively done what generation after generation of philosophers have failed to do. I guess you thought we’d all say, “Gee whiz, I never thought about it like that. Praise Jesus!” If you were really interested in making your point, you would take more care to explain your position, instead of berating everyone for failing to understand your airtight logic. > > Dr. J > > \*\* Just because YOU don’t accept the arguement A) doesn’t mean it is not logically valid, and B) just as many people have accepted it as not accepted it. Can’t you do any better than that? I’ve explained the uncaused causer argument. I’m not recapitulating. Get off your butt and read the post. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/172 "2000-04-21T20:58:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by pashley: > Just because YOU don’t accept the arguement A) doesn’t mean it is not logically valid, and B) just as many people have accepted it as not accepted it. With all due respect, and while it’s true that mathematics has never been my strong point, I honestly don’t see how you can say that as many people _on this thread_ have accepted your logic as have not accepted it, _on this thread_. That being the case, what’s the harm in trying to explain it one more time to those of us who aren’t harrassing you, aren’t gratuitously attacking you, but who simply _haven’t understood your answer to the simple question that they all asked_? > [@](#): > > I’ve explained the uncaused causer argument. I’m not recapitulating. Get off your butt and read the post. Okay. Even though I don’t know why it wouldn’t just be easier to answer the question again–using different language, since we all obviously didn’t get it the first time–can you at least point me to the relative position in the thread that you answered the questions posed by Satan? You know, middle of page one, fourth post down in page two, what? I honestly want to understand where you’re coming from. Almost all of us do. But you’re not going to persuade us of your logic if you respond to all requests of clarification with the same blanket brush-off. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/173 "2000-04-21T20:59:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by pashley: > **I’ve explained the uncaused causer argument. Get off your butt and read the post.** You did not explain it sufficiently. Get off your butt and explain it better. ---
**Author:** ![CheapBastid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8baadc/32.png) [@CheapBastid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheapBastid)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/174 "2000-04-21T21:17:00Z")
pashley - > [@](#): > > Everything that does exist NECESSARILY must have been caused to exist. But caused by what? Beyond everything there is, there cannot be nothing. That would mean that reality is base on nothing - absurd. So then, there must be something that is uncaused, and that something is that which everything else is dependent. Our existence, everything’s existence, was started, necessarily by something that was uncaused. God. > [@](#): > > **Everything that exists is in space and time** ; we take up space, we move thru time. Things that are material (matter) are affected. You are, at least partially, made of material. This means you are finite, limited and changing being, for matter is a principle of limitation and change. Because you have limitations, you are dependent upon other things for your existence, such as air and water. If I take that away, surely you will change (die). You exist if something else is exists. > But not everything can be like this. If it was, nothing would be able to cause the existence of something else. So, there must be something that does not exist conditionally; something which exists in itself. Since all things in this world are material, this “something” must necessarily exist outside of this world. – _bolding mine_ I think these are the Uncaused Causer arguments you keep referencing (please let me know if I am incorrect in this assumption). Within the argument you have two standards of Existence, this is (I think) giving folks pause. There is no way for us to hang our hats on the Uncaused Causer’s existence, as it is outside our realm, and not testable. Is it so hard to understand folks not accepting the Christian Version of A Creator as valid? Also your assumption that ‘not everything can be like this’ does not automatically follow. This (I think) gives folks pause, and makes it difficult to follow your logic. ---
**Author:** ![pashley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pashley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pashley)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/175 "2000-04-21T22:17:00Z")
Ok, everyone that is chewing my buttocks about “answer me! answer me!”…I’ll refer you to the “Goliath” folder where the stage is set. And please, let him (NEN) and I do the discussing. I’m done with this folder, look for my argument over there, starting tomorrow…I’m headed home now… * * * Patrick Ashley “For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/176 "2000-04-21T22:22:00Z")
Pashley, you keep saying you addressed the uncaused causer on page one. Here is what I could find on the subject from you on page one - please add more if I’ve not found it all. Pashley: > [@](#): > > I disagree. Everything that does exist NECESSARILY must have been caused to exist. But caused by what? Beyond everything there is, there cannot be nothing. That would mean that reality is base on nothing - absurd. So then, there must be something that is uncaused, and that something is that which everything else is dependent. Our existence, everything’s existence, was started, necessarily by something that was uncaused. God. Pashley again: > [@](#): > > Again, see my post to Otto, if you believe something can come from nothing. You even say “no discernable cause”, from which you, in error, jump to the conclusion that there is no cause. > > As for your second argument, that the universe always was, well, that’s not what astrophysicists are espousing vis-a-vis the Big Bang theory. > > Your last point is my favorite. > > The first point, about a creator for God, is the infinite regress theory. > > Everything that exists is in space and time; we take up space, we move thru time. Things that are material (matter) are affected. You are, at least partially, made of material. This means you are finite, limited and changing being, for matter is a principle of limitation and change. Because you have limitations, you are dependent upon other things for your existence, such as air and water. If I take that away, surely you will change (die). You exist if something else is exists. But not everything can be like this. If it was, nothing would be able to cause the existence of something else. So, there must be something that does not exist conditionally; something which exists in itself. Since all things in this world are material, this “something” must necessarily exist outside of this world. > > Guess who? Is this an accurate statement of your answer to the uncaused causer problem? I propose that you believe you have answered the problem sufficiently, but that you have not, and that is why people keep asking you about it. Merely saying “I’ve already answered it” and ignoring people who analyze your answer is admitting defeat. Let’s take a look at your above points: > [@](#): > > I disagree. Everything that does exist NECESSARILY must have been caused to exist. [ul][li]Saying ‘it is logical’ as you have in subsequent posts does not justify the statement that everything must have been caused. When you say this, you are really saying ‘it is intuitive’, not ‘it is logical’, because no logical supporting argument has been presented.[/li][li]Even if everything must have been caused, I see no reason why there could not be multiple causes (I’ll get back to this later.)[/li][li]The word ‘everything’ causes you problem in your later arguments. Use sparingly.[/ul][/li] > [@](#): > > But caused by what? Beyond everything there is, there cannot be nothing. [ul][li]Why not?[/li][li]Again the word ‘everything’ will trip you up.[/li][li]The statement is self-contradictory - You say “Beyond everything there is, there cannot be nothing.” This flies in the face of what the words “everything” and “nothing” mean. If there is something beyond ‘everything’, then ‘everything’ is not Everything.[/ul][/li] > [@](#): > > That would mean that reality is base on nothing - absurd. People have pointed out that ‘cause’ means nothing outside of time, so it may not be absurd. It may only be absurd to you. Even granting your above tenuous points, you make a fatal error: > [@](#): > > So then, there must be something that is uncaused, and that something is that which everything else is dependent. Our existence, everything’s existence, was started, necessarily by something that was uncaused. You have just disputed your first premise that “Everything that does exist NECESSARILY must have been caused to exist.” This implies that anything that has not been caused to exist does not exist. ‘something’ which is uncaused must be part of ‘everything’, or this is some strange usage of the word ‘everything’ of which I was previously unaware. Really! I’m not playing word games. Even if I were to grant you **yet another flawed argument** and say you are right that something must be uncaused that has caused everything else, you are liable for explaining the following problems: [ul][li]What makes you think there is only one uncaused thing? Why not 2? 5? Avogadro’s Number?[/li][li]What makes you think you know the identity of the one uncaused thing? (i.e. couldn’t the uncaused thing be the universe itself?)[/ul][/li] Shall I continue with your second post? > [@](#): > > As for your second argument, that the universe always was, well, that’s not what astrophysicists are espousing vis-a-vis the Big Bang theory. This is a fundamental misapprehension of ‘always’. Time is not defined outside the universe as we understand it, so it is nearly a tautology to say that the universe has always existed. What you can ask, and what **cannot ever be answered by science** barring some huge breakthrough, is what is **outside** the universe, if anything. This is what people are really asking when they ask about before the big-bang or after the possible big-crunch - outside the universe, not before or after. > [@](#): > > Everything that exists is in space and time; we take up space, we move thru time. Careful with that ‘everything’, pashley. > [@](#): > > Things that are material (matter) are affected. You are, at least partially, made of material. This means you are finite, limited and changing being, for matter is a principle of limitation and change. I have a hard time understanding what you are saying here. Care to elucidate? Since I can’t figure out what you mean by this, I’ll just give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it is ‘true’. > [@](#): > > Because you have limitations, you are dependent upon other things for your existence, such as air and water. If I take that away, surely you will change (die). You exist if something else is exists. I think I understand this - you are saying we are dependent on air and water. That is not the same thing as saying that air and water are our cause. Air and water are not dependent on anything - unless you want to go back and say the oxygen was forged in a star. What is the point of this statement at all? I see no relevance to uncaused causers. > [@](#): > > But not everything can be like this. This is equivalent to your above “Beyond everything there is, there cannot be nothing.” The problems with it are the same, to wit: [ul][li]Why not?[/li][li]This statement contradicts your very statements “Everything that exists is in space and time”, “everything that exists must have been caused to exist”. How on earth can you reconcile these statements to “But not everything can be like this”? You just said umpteen times that everything **is** like this![/ul][/li] [quote] So, there must be something that does not exist conditionally; something which exists in itself. Since all things in this world are material, this “something” must necessarily exist outside o ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/177 "2000-04-21T22:30:00Z")
Scylla: > [@](#): > > Receding galaxies and red shift allow us to plot the time and place of the big bang. > > Quantum mechanics describes how matter can come into and out of existence on its own without any causative agent. > > Scientists can still hear radio echoes from the big-bang. > > Cosmic rays are high energy particles. The thing is outside of particle accelerators there is no place with enough energy to create them. TH=hey are holdovers form shortly after the big-bang when the energy levels were high enough to bring them into existence. > > Particle physicists are attempting to replicate conditions that occured during or shortly after the big-bang in the hopes of understanding what occured. The search for a predicted particle in particular, The Higgs-Bosun may indeed unlock some of the secrets of creation for us. Yes. I’m still listening. This proves the universe **self-created** …??? **HOW?** :: ---
**Author:** ![douglips](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@douglips](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/douglips)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/178 "2000-04-21T22:34:00Z")
Doh! I just missed your post, pashley, I didn’t mean to ignore it. I still think you have not addressed the above issues, but I will patiently await the unfolding in Goliath. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/179 "2000-04-21T22:34:00Z")
CB: It don’t prove. It’s evidence that strongly supports the theory. Care to address it? * * * “Don’t just stand there in Uffish thought!” -The Caterpillar ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/180 "2000-04-21T22:35:00Z")
David B: > [@](#): > > If I were a betting man, I’d bet that no matter what evidence he posts, you’ll try to rationalize it away and end up at the same point you are now. > > Let’s watch and find out… You seem to be a proponent of this same ‘self-creation’ theory… or do you just prefer to **ignore** how everything came into existence and jump right into the ‘primordial ooze-to-great-apes-to-humans dissertation???’ :: ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/181 "2000-04-21T22:39:00Z")
Scylla: > [@](#): > > It’s evidence that strongly supports the theory. **What** theory are you referring to? :: ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/182 "2000-04-21T22:45:00Z")
The theory of Santa Claus. * * * “Don’t just stand there in Uffish thought!” -The Caterpillar ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133/183 "2000-04-21T22:48:00Z")
douglips: > [@](#): > > If there is something beyond ‘everything’, then ‘everything’ is not Everything. You swerved into the truth pashley has been talking about. This is exactly the point. Think about it. :: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cosmos-created-not-by-chance/18133.md?page=10)