# The cost of Bush gloating over Iraqi elections ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425 "2005-01-30T14:35:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/21 "2005-01-30T22:37:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Ivylass, women had the right to vote under Saddam Hussein’s regime. I bring this up because in your post it seems that you believe that they did not. Man, that’s hilarious. And they liked Saddam so much, that in the last election 100% of them voted for him! ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/22 "2005-01-30T22:43:31Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > After seeing the first “freedom is on the march” thread regarding voter turnout in Iraq… I’m think what will Iraqis feel after daring bombs and menaces voting and then to go home and see Bush gloating over a “succesful” Iraqi election. It will certainly sour their taste for the election. > > ``` > I can imagine the reaction of the Iraqis when US neo-cons claim this as a victory for Bush. Just like in the Olympics where Bush had to spoil it for Iraqis by claiming 2 more were in the game due to him... and the angry Iraqi soccer coach quickly reminding people that his country is under a military occupation and not "free". > > ``` > > I’d really like to see Bush shut up this time around… and avoid giving insurgents reasons to condemn the election. Especially if any future government acts a bit like a US puppet (unavoidable IMO). > > Even conservatives must agree that Bush keeping his trap shut will help save lives and Iraq. Or not ? !) It is a victory for Bush, as he set out the democratisation process. As he was determined to invade Iraq regardless of the B.S evidence. 1. Who cares if he does? Millions of Iraqis have voted, thats an achievement in itself 2. Have you said anything about him gloating in regards to Afghanistans recent election, if not, why not? > [@](#): > > oh… as for the wait a week… I’d say wait a few months. Democracy isn’t the magic formula for stable states and happy people. We’ve discussed elsewhere that democracy is far from helping Latin America for example. Imagine Iraqi “democracy” then. So you’d advocate a few tinpot dictatorships to spring up and promote stability? Any form of dictatorship which oppresses shows that its a weak state rather than a strong one. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/23 "2005-01-30T22:52:57Z")
By the wy, I didn’t hear Bush ‘gloating’. I heard him congratulate the Iraqi people, the U.S. military, and the Iraqi military. He was cautious in his statements, and put the credit for the success of the elections on those who deserved credit. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/24 "2005-01-30T23:58:35Z")
All it shoa is that blanket curfews and a total ban on traffic work. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/25 "2005-01-31T00:41:15Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > By the wy, I didn’t hear Bush ‘gloating’. I heard him congratulate the Iraqi people, the U.S. military, and the Iraqi military. He was cautious in his statements, and put the credit for the success of the elections on those who deserved credit. On what basis are you declaring the elections a success? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/26 "2005-01-31T00:47:16Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > On what basis are you declaring the elections a success? That people came out and voted? That _was_ one of our aims. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/27 "2005-01-31T00:51:35Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > That people came out and voted? That _was_ one of our aims. That is setting the bar pretty low, isn’t it.? Some of the people turned out, but if less than 10% of the Sunnis voted, this election is not a success by any measure, and will do nothing to avert a civil war. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/28 "2005-01-31T00:58:26Z")
> [@](#): > > On what basis are you declaring the elections a success? Personally, I base it on the amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth I hear from the left. (-: Of course, unprecedented turnout helps, as does the jubilant atmosphere and the total lack of anti-democratic demonstrations. No one burning effigies of George Bush, no riots, no widespread violence by large crowds… As for the election not being ‘legitimate’ if only 10% of the Sunnis vote: nonsense. Were elections during the civil war in the U.S. illegitimate because people in the South didn’t vote? Everything I’ve heard coming out of Iraq today suggests that the Kurds and Shiites are well aware that they need the Sunnis to take part, and they are going to open spots in the government for them and make sure their interests are represented. And there will be another election in December. The results of this election will be valid regardless of how many Sunnis chose not to take part. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/29 "2005-01-31T01:03:38Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > That is setting the bar pretty low, isn’t it.? Some of the people turned out, but if less than 10% of the Sunnis voted, this election is not a success by any measure, and will do nothing to avert a civil war. So we’re to consider the election null and void because probably 60% of the country voted, and a portion didn’t? If they abstain, thats there problem. Bollocks it meaning ‘nothing to avoid civil war’ how do you know the Shiites won’t include them into the process, remember they need majority consensus to write the constitution, and I’ve got bets they won’t wanna have to write it twice. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/30 "2005-01-31T02:10:04Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > So we’re to consider the election null and void because probably 60% of the country voted, and a portion didn’t? If they abstain, thats there problem. No, it’s our problem if the country is torn apart by violence from disenfranchised Sunnis. You can shake your finger all you want at the Sunnis who were to afraid to vote, but the fact remains that the government hangs by a thread if the Sunnis are shut out of government for what ever reason. How can you dismiss it as their problem, when they will most certainly make it the problem of every citizen of Iraq? They are not going to just go away because you think they abstained. There are no rules in civil war. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/31 "2005-01-31T02:29:29Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > No, it’s our problem if the country is torn apart by violence from disenfranchised Sunnis. You can shake your finger all you want at the Sunnis who were to afraid to vote, but the fact remains that the government hangs by a thread if the Sunnis are shut out of government for what ever reason. How can you dismiss it as their problem, when they will most certainly make it the problem of every citizen of Iraq? They are not going to just go away because you think they abstained. There are no rules in civil war. Well the elections for the past 100 years before the 1960’s in the US were illegitimate, since blacks couldn’t vote as whites could. Who the hell says the Shiites will shut them out? They’re not stupid, they know the key to a successful transfere of power is to maintain good ties and relationships with Sunnis. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/32 "2005-01-31T03:24:58Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Well the elections for the past 100 years before the 1960’s in the US were illegitimate, since blacks couldn’t vote as whites could. You are missing my point. I am not arguing the legitimacy of the elections; I am arguing whether the Sunnis will regard them as legitimate and refrain from blowing the country apart. It matters not what you and I agree on; what matters is what the disenfranchised Sunnis believe. They don’t have the political power to effect change from within, but they do have the power to destroy this fledgling government through violence before it has any chance of succeeding. We cannot afford to simply dismiss them as non-cooperative, therefore impotent, when they can keep the country in a perpetual state of war indefinitely. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/33 "2005-01-31T04:17:05Z")
Or the Shia from taking this as an opportunity for some payback… ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/34 "2005-01-31T16:51:25Z")
The most interesting thing in all these stories about the Iraq elections is how much it has to do with us…whether it will benefit Bush, or embarrass Bush. Yes, the elections must be a success, because to believe otherwise would beneift the Democrats. No, the elections must be a failure, because to believe otherwise would benefit the Republicans. How about we talk about what the elecitons will mean for Iraq, instead of what the elections will mean for US domestic politics? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/35 "2005-01-31T17:37:48Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Or the Shia from taking this as an opportunity for some payback… They would of done that already, regardless of an election. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle\_east/4156073.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4156073.stm) > [@](#): > > He told AFP news agency “we will insist that they [the Sunnis] be represented in government, that they have posts and that they have a voice in drafting the constitution and responsibility in the government”. ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/36 "2005-01-31T19:39:45Z")
I have a difficult time deciding whether some of the members of this board are simply pessimistic about the chance for peace in Iraq or are so blinded by their hatred of Bush that they would welcome further bloodshed if it meant humiliating him. What the world witnessed yesterday in Iraq was a marvel. Ordinary people braved threats of death and slaughter and turned out to vote (whereas we Americans are too lazy or apathetic). Then they held up their ink-stained fingers for all to see and danced in the streets. Yes, there was bloodshed, and this should by no means be minimized. But it should be clear to even the most cynical among you that the insurgency’s campaign to stop the election has been a failure. No, this is not the end of the violence. We have no way of knowing whether the winners of the election will be capable of forming a cohesive government. We cannot predict with any certainty whether the emerging government will be recognized by other Arab nations. It would be naive to think that things will go smoothly from here on. But for the love of Og, people. Step off your fucking high horses. Yesterday didn’t prove that this whole clusterfuck will turn out well, but it proved that it _could_. If you can’t admit it, you should probably ask yourself why. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/37 "2005-01-31T20:13:17Z")
> [@Kizarvexius](#): > > But it should be clear to even the most cynical among you that the insurgency’s campaign to stop the election has been a failure. I agree with your post… but I’d like to mention that the “victory for Bush” people were the ones speaking out first. 😃 We just reacted. I also hate the way any good news is taken to high heavens as proof of something… the same way we see bad news as impending disaster. (Especially when some people tune out once the bad news starts rolling again) As for the insurgency… I think they would have been absolutely stupid to have promoted a major carnage… especially since Iraqis seem fond of the illusion of voting=change. At some point they must have noticed that it was counter-productive to target civilians during elections. Its one thing to blast policemen and easily label them pro-USA… but voters… that is a harder thing to get away without losing a lot of sympathy from disgruntled Iraqis. Afterall “democracy” isn’t the enemy of Iraqis… its those trigger happy Americans, etc… Insurgents/Terrorists aren’t all maniacs without brains after all. ``` I think the relatively quiet election proves that the number of hard core foreign insurgents is small ... that most insurgents are local fighters. I think it also seems to indicate that the Sunni are much more active insurgents too probably. There were less Sunni voters, etc... ``` ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/38 "2005-01-31T20:20:13Z")
> [@Kizarvexius](#): > > What the world witnessed yesterday in Iraq was a marvel. Ordinary people braved threats of death and slaughter and turned out to vote (whereas we Americans are too lazy or apathetic). Then they held up their ink-stained fingers for all to see and danced in the streets. And how many reporters ventured out from the safety of the Green Zone to talk to Iraqis who were pissed off about the whole affair and refused to vote? You doubtlessly believe the [toppling of Saddam’s statue](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm) was an imprompteau act from ordinary Iraqis, too. Finding happy Shiites in Iraq is a no-brainer; it’s finding happy Iraqis of _all_ groups in Iraq that’s a lot tougher. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/39 "2005-01-31T20:59:14Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Finding happy Shiites in Iraq is a no-brainer; it’s finding happy Iraqis of all groups in Iraq that’s a lot tougher. Well, if there are a lot of happy Shi’ites, and (most likely) a lot of happy Kurds, then…well, doesn’t that constitute the majority of the population? After all, the Sunni’s, who ARE pretty unhappy, are a minority. In addition, they are unhappy with good reason…they had the whip hand after all for decades over the majority of the population and are kind of feeling the burn now that that is no longer likely to be the case in the future. I think its safe to say that the majority of Iraqi’s are fairly happy about the election, and support an election process in Iraq…as opposed to those who support government of whoever has the most guns or who can chop off the most heads. While they might not be happy with US, I think the majority ARE happy with the election process…as can be seen by the majority of eligable Iraqi’s voting, even at the risk of life and limb. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425/40 "2005-01-31T21:16:45Z")
They sure are happy now… the problem is hopefully in their next election when they have to chose between two shitty candidates for president and have to chose the “lesser evil”. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cost-of-bush-gloating-over-iraqi-elections/287425.md?page=3)