# The Coward From Crawford: His Formative Years **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 21, 2004, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218 "2004-09-21T00:49:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/21 "2004-09-22T15:25:10Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I really wish George W. Bush were a war hero. He’s not, though, and has never claimed to be. > > We have to take our candidates as we find them, not as we’d wish they’d be. > > I’ll take George Bush as he is, despite some things that trouble me about him and his policies. He’s a decent guy at the heart of it, his policies synch up with my preferences relatively closely, and I could never vote for a liberal Democrat like Kerry. > > If Kerry is your preference, after a similar evaluation, so be it. Vote accordingly. But after all analysis, if Vietnam is your animating issue, you are either employing rhetoric to bolster a candidate you favor for other reasons, or you’re voting for a shallow reason indeed. I don’t know why you seem to keep mising the point. **We don’t care that Bush avoided the war**. That is NOT the issue. What bothers us is that Bush used his family connections to avoid the war, **but campaigned actively to support it**. He thought it was fine for _other_ (poor) people to go but that _he_ deserved a special exemption. Bill Clinton did not want to go but also did not want anyone _else_ to go. He worked actively against it. This kind of arrogant, unaccounatble elitism is one of Bush’s most defining charactersistics, The rules don’t apply to him. Other human beings exist only to serve his personal interests. Their lives are expendable. He is special. That’s how he really thinks. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/22 "2004-09-22T15:40:56Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I don’t know why you seem to keep mising the point. **We don’t care that Bush avoided the war**. That is NOT the issue. What bothers us is that Bush used his family connections to avoid the war, **but campaigned actively to support it**. He thought it was fine for _other_ (poor) people to go but that _he_ deserved a special exemption. Somehow over the last several months regarding this issue, I never once read here or anywhere else, anything about how Bush campaigned in support of the Vietnam war. However I can see that this new “revelation” might steal the focus concerning Bush’s avoidance of combat during that war. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/23 "2004-09-22T15:41:30Z")
I get your point, all right. I don’t happen to agree with it, though. And I get the feeling that, if similar circumstances applied to John Kerry, nobody here would care. Remember, Kerry also applied for early release from active duty, a request that was granted. Does anybody really care that he did so? It’s certainly not high on the list of campaign issues, at least that I can see. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/24 "2004-09-22T16:04:56Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > Somehow over the last several months regarding this issue, I never once read here or anywhere else, anything about how Bush campaigned in support of the Vietnam war. However I can see that this new “revelation” might steal the focus concerning Bush’s avoidance of combat during that war. There’s nothing new about it. It’s not a “revelation.” I knew this four years ago. It’s always been known that Bush campaigned for a Vietnam hawk while he was in Alabama. That’s why he was transferred to the Alabama ANG from Texas. The media just hasn’t made it much of a point to talk about the content of Blount’s campaign. It’s always been out there if you looked for it, but you did have to look. > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Remember, Kerry also applied for early release from active duty, a request that was granted. Does anybody really care that he did so? It’s certainly not high on the list of campaign issues, at least that I can see. Because it’s not true…at least not the way you characterize it. Kerry was transferred out of the country because it was _standard policy to do so_ with anyone ewho had been wounded three times. It was Kerry’s second combat tour and he did not resist the transfer. Almost nobody else resisted those transfers either. It sounds like you think Kerry should have been treated _differently_ than anyone else in the Navy. Or maybe you think it should be a campaign issue that Kerry did not show _extraordinary_ virtue by requesting that he be allowed to stay in Vietnam? In any case, Kerry _went_ to Vietnam. He risked his own life. He did not try to make a case for other kids being sent to dies while avoiding it himself. That’s what Bush did. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/25 "2004-09-22T16:15:22Z")
That’s not what I was talking about, **Diogenes**. After Kerry was transferred out of country, he was assigned to be a staff officer to an admiral. It was while serving in this position that he was granted early release from active duty. He was in no physical danger at the time. Again, no difference to me either way. But you should be aware of this before you accuse me of misrepresentation. It is surely a fact. From [the _Boston Globe_.](http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061703.shtml) > [@](#): > > On Jan. 3, 1970, Kerry requested that his superior, Rear Admiral Walter F. Schlech, Jr., grant him an early discharge so that he could run for Congress on an antiwar platform. > > “I just said to the admiral: `I’ve got to get out. I’ve got to go do what I came back here to do, which is, end this thing,’” Kerry recalled, referring to the war. The request was approved, and Kerry was honorably discharged, which he said shaved six months from his commitment. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/26 "2004-09-22T17:27:59Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > That’s not what I was talking about, **Diogenes**. > > After Kerry was transferred out of country, he was assigned to be a staff officer to an admiral. It was while serving in this position that he was granted early release from active duty. > > He was in no physical danger at the time. > > Again, no difference to me either way. But you should be aware of this before you accuse me of misrepresentation. It is surely a fact. > > From [the _Boston Globe_.](http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061703.shtml) Well, I apologize for making the wrong assumption, but since, as you say, he was in no danger, since it was his second tour and since he had already served in combat, I don’t see why it matters or how it has any bearing on Bush. And Kerry was running on an _anti-_ war platform. He was not campaigning _for_ the war while avoiding it himself. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/27 "2004-09-22T17:45:52Z")
I did say it didn’t matter, just as Bush’s release from service early ultimately doesn’t matter. And George W. Bush wasn’t running at all. He was merely employed by the campaign, and didn’t get to choose the message Blount put forth. I know you dislike Bush reflexively, **Diogenes**. And I seriously doubt that this is the reason why. Therefore, I have to assume that this is merely another rhetorical tool to portray Bush in a negative light, without discussing in concrete terms the real issues you have with him. Were I Kerry, I might be doing this, too, since I believe that if the race were focused solely on the issues Kerry would lose decisively. It doesn’t mean, though, that I see this as anything more than it is, or that the American public will care at all. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/28 "2004-09-22T18:19:08Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Were I Kerry, I might be doing this, too, since I believe that if the race were focused solely on the issues Kerry would lose decisively. You mean issues such as: (1) George Bush has presided over the first Presidential term since Herbert Hoover in which there was a net job loss, despite enacting what must be the most expensive “stimulus package” in history? (2) George Bush has turned surplusses into deficits…and structural deficits that are existing and will continue to exist long after the economy has recovered from the downturn. (3) George Bush’s “tax cuts” are, for the median income person, essentially the equivalent of charging $1000 / year on the person’s credit card, giving that person $400 of it and passing the rest on to the richest Americans, a good part to the top 1% (who are the ones who have already up-and-away benefitted the most in the growth of their after-tax incomes from the economy growth of the last 25 years). (4) The Bush Administration’s energy bill is such an embarrassing piece of pork to his fossil fuel friends that even his former Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill, who served on the task force I believe, can’t understand why these guys want to implement such a poor policy. (5) The debacle in Iraq and the lies and deception that got us into that mess. (6) The assault on our nation’s environmental regulations and the opposition to any non-voluntary action to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. (7) The general triumph of ideology over fact and science in making decisions, including the active supression or distortion of scientific data and stacking of scientific committees that even former officials in some Republican Administrations say is unprecedented. (8) The increase in government secrecy and the other attempts to general subvert and undermine our democracy by increasing people’s ignorance and their belief in manifestly false “facts”. (9) The passage of a Medicare drug benefit in which the real cost was actively suppressed by the Administration and whose provisions make it more of welfare for the pharmaceutical industry than a useful program for seniors. That’s a good starter list. Hey, if we want to have a campaign on the issues, I say, “Bring it on!” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/29 "2004-09-22T18:37:14Z")
Very good, **jshore**. You compiled a large list, and didn’t mention Vietnam once. I would quibble with some of the items there. But the fact that you did so puts you one up on John Kerry. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/30 "2004-09-22T18:47:04Z")
Kerry argues every one of those points in every stump speech and on his website. He argued them in his convention speech. He will argue them in the debates. By what logic can you say that Kerry has not made a list? Kerry has not made an issue of Bush’s war malingering either, btw. It’s only the right wing media that keeps talking about Vietnam, not Kerry. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/31 "2004-09-22T18:49:01Z")
Oh, then that “Fortunate Son” video must have been a figment of my imagination. :wally ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/32 "2004-09-22T19:04:12Z")
Oh, and in case you missed it, **Diogenes** , the one up I was referring to was the fact that **jshore** didn’t mention Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/33 "2004-09-22T19:23:48Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Oh, then that “Fortunate Son” video must have been a figment of my imagination. > > :wally Wasn’t that [Moveon.org](http://Moveon.org)? I don’t think Kerry had anything to do with that ad. In fact, I remember him condemning Moveon for beating the AWOL Bush drum. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/34 "2004-09-22T19:38:05Z")
> [@Ukulele Ike](#): > > I dunno. I didn’t read that as “making a mess” (as in “left an empty pizza box on the kitchen table”) but as “George trashed the place pretty good and, when the landlord had to have it professionally cleaned and sent George the bill, completely ignored it.” > > Also the fact that he was 25 years old at the time – ostensibly an adult – not some callow teenager. > > Maybe not something that would make me change my vote if I was a rabid Republican, but certainly YET ANOTHER card in my index of “He’s a Fucking Arrogant Asshole” reasons. If you like that sort of thing, here’s more detail: [http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/\_/id/6487413?pageid=rs.Home&pageregion=single7&rnd=1095881522034&has-player=false](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/_/id/6487413?pageid=rs.Home&pageregion=single7&rnd=1095881522034&has-player=false) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/35 "2004-09-22T19:50:00Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Wasn’t that [Moveon.org](http://Moveon.org)? > > I don’t think Kerry had anything to do with that ad. In fact, I remember him condemning Moveon for beating the AWOL Bush drum. It’s the [DNC.](http://www.democrats.org/fortunateson/) ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/36 "2004-09-22T19:51:15Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Wasn’t that [“Fortunate Son” ad produced by] [Moveon.org](http://Moveon.org)? > > I don’t think Kerry had anything to do with that ad. In fact, I remember him condemning Moveon for beating the AWOL Bush drum. It was a [DNC ad](http://www.democrats.org/fortunateson/), and “not authorized by any candidate or candidate’s committee.” ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/37 "2004-09-22T20:34:42Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > If you like that sort of thing, here’s more detail: [http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/\_/id/6487413?pageid=rs.Home&pageregion=single7&rnd=1095881522034&has-player=false](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/_/id/6487413?pageid=rs.Home&pageregion=single7&rnd=1095881522034&has-player=false) [Major Irrelevant Hijack] Amazing what things will bring back memories. I used to be good friends with the granddaughter of Midland, Tx newspaper owner, Blount campaign manager and a close friend of Bush I, Jimmy Allison, mentioned in that article. Alyson Ann Allison. Man, I’ll never forget that woman. Part Cherokee and Part Choctaw Indian – silky dark hair, exquisite green eyes, a real stunner. And yet, they didn’t come any more insecure than her. Filled with envy and prejudices I simply couldn’t tolerate (she refused to join me at dinner with former Minnesota Viking Ahmad Rashad because “The paparazzi are all over Vail, and g-d forbid my picture show up in Midland, Tx with a black man!”) caused me to ditch that friendship after our last trip together in the early '80s. I’ve occasionally wondered whatever happened to her (she travelled in very wealthy circles – I was probably the only lowly exception, and if memory serves, at one time was dating the son of whoever the President of Mexico was at the time (I can’t recall and don’t feel like looking it up)). A quick Google search of her name only gives one hit, to a brief description of a [failed suit against a former attorney for $3.5 million](http://www.edwright.com/defendants3.html). No date, though. Wow. Wonder what she’s doing these days.[End Hijack. Sorry] ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/38 "2004-09-22T20:43:34Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > It’s the [DNC.](http://www.democrats.org/fortunateson/) Great. So I’m right. Kerry had nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/39 "2004-09-22T20:57:34Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Very good, **jshore**. You compiled a large list, and didn’t mention Vietnam once. > > I would quibble with some of the items there. But the fact that you did so puts you one up on John Kerry. You make this claim completely devoid of evidence. Have you actually been listening to Kerry’s stump speeches or looking at his website or press releases? It is Bush and Co. who have constantly been trying to change the subject, and also the media which has become very focussed on these subjects because they always seem more interesting to the media than the actual issues. After all, in an ideal world, Bush and Co. would not constantly be fear-mongering and distorting everything Kerry says, and lying constantly and otherwise keeping Kerry on the defensive this way. I can’t say that their strategy is a bad one…It seems to be quite successful and is what they have to do in order to distract the public from the real issues and facts, where they would lose badly. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2004, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218/40 "2004-09-23T14:35:56Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Great. So I’m right. Kerry had nothing to do with it. I’ll remember this statement, and I’ll be sure to remind you of it the next time you get your panties in a bunch over an RNC ad. After all, by this logic, President Bush wouldn’t be responsible at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-coward-from-crawford-his-formative-years/265218.md?page=3)