# The Crane Brouhaha over Gaza, Pit edition **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2024, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742 "2024-04-19T08:11:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/1 "2024-04-19T08:11:04Z")
> [@What were you THINKING?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/2545): > > > [@Bad Moderation in "Hamas Attacks Israel" MPSIMS thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-moderation-in-hamas-attacks-israel-mpsims-thread/1000412/24): > > > > But he did indeed make it clear that he meant “less kind,” and was not engaging in any sort of hyperbole. ⁢ > > **BigT** , what were you thinking when you posted this? Ignore **Crane** for a second. If I say, “I’m so hungry I could eat a cow”, and **TOWP** asks, “a _cow_?”, and I clarify, “a _whole_ cow”, you realize I am being hyperbolic throughout? It is important that I am literally referring to a cow, otherwise it wouldn’t be hyperbole. ⁢ I meant what I said. Yes, in your example, you are still clearly continuing the joke. Crane made it clear he was not. I just did not quote the full post where he did so. The point of my argument was to rebut MrDibble’s claim that his original post could have just been hyperbole to express emotion. > [@What were you THINKING?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/2545): > > I think you had a valid argument, if only you had used “error of composition” instead of the word “hyperbole”. I.e. if **Crane** had accidentally written IDF is less kind than Waffen SS, but meant “more kind”, that would be forgiveable. I agree. But all agree, he didn’t do that. Pretty sure that’s what you were trying to say, but you botched it. I did make this argument, but in a previous post. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/2 "2024-04-19T12:23:30Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > MrDibble’s claim that his original post could have just been hyperbole to express emotion. That was not my claim. I specifically said he was being a hyperbolic dick to troll. From my first post: > [@Bad Moderation in "Hamas Attacks Israel" MPSIMS thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-moderation-in-hamas-attacks-israel-mpsims-thread/1000412/12): > > Was he trolling for reaction? I’d say yes I just disagree that trolling the particular group he set out to troll constitutes antisemitism, to any degree. And since we’re in the Pit : fuck off with thinking your very poor readings of any of my previous posts on particular racists have any relevance here. You’re not going to catch me in whatever pseudo-logical gotcha you were attempting, because my stance is consistent. But do feel free to try it on here in the Pit, where I can give your personalizing of the argument all due reverence… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/3 "2024-04-19T14:30:31Z")
I think Crane was being anti-semitic in the same way that a racist might say, after (for example) a vicious gang shooting that killed children in Chicago, “if only they were as kind as their forefathers’ owners in the 1800s”. Comparing Jews to Nazis is anti-semitic, barring some very, very unusual circumstances; just as comparing Black Americans to Southern slave-owners is racist (again barring very unusual circumstances). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/4 "2024-04-19T14:37:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Comparing Jews to Nazis is anti-semitic Bullshit. Not when those Jews are doing genocides, and that’s what you’re comparing, it’s not. Was I being antisemitic with this post? > [@Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3545): > > Yeah, and the Nazis never built a bridge over Chłodna Street, either. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > just as comparing Black Americans to Southern slave-owners is racist If Black Americans _started owning slaves_, would comparing their slaveowning be racist?. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/5 "2024-04-19T14:39:32Z")
R. Kelly was a slave-owner in all but name. I still think it would be racist to say “he should have been as kind as his great-great-grandad’s owner”. Plenty of ways to abhor what he did without trying to link a black man to slave-owners (and in particular _say he’s worse than slave-owners_). So I’ll amend what I said – saying Jews are _worse than Nazis_ is anti-semitic. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/6 "2024-04-19T14:46:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > R. Kelly was a slave-owner in all but name. No, R. Kelly is a sex criminal, not a slaveowner. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I still think it would be racist to say “he should have been as kind as his great-great-grandad’s owner”. Dickish? Yes, extremely so. Racist? Nope. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Plenty of ways to abhor what he did without trying to link a black man to slave-owners If he’s literally slave-owning, that’s a valid comparison. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > saying Jews are _worse than Nazis_ is anti-semitic. If the IOF actually behaves worse than Nazis, saying so would in no fucking way be antisemitic. The Nazis are the universal yardstickfor comparison for “worst génocidaires”. That’s got fuck-all to do with antisemitism. . ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/7 "2024-04-19T14:47:35Z")
In this case, they were NOT worse than the Nazis (which obviously means very little – IDF actions in Gaza, and overall Israeli government policy towards Gaza and the West Bank, are plenty bad enough), so in this case, Crane was being antisemitic by saying they were worse than Nazis. I do think Jews are a special case when it comes to comparing to Nazis. Maybe because I’m a Jew, and have Jewish ancestors who escaped the Holocaust (and other relatives who didn’t). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/8 "2024-04-19T14:50:36Z")
If he wasn’t being antisemitic if we mostly agreed they were being worse, he’s not being antisemitic even if just he thinks they are. Just wrong. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I do think Jews are a special case when it comes to comparing to Nazis Fuck. That. Noise. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/9 "2024-04-19T14:51:32Z")
Then I think we can leave it there. We disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/10 "2024-04-19T14:56:34Z")
> [@What were you THINKING?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/2577): > > I endorse @digs post. Also, I enjoy many of Beck’s bad bad bad threads. @Beckdawrek , I encourage you to return to posting those. That lets people who enjoy your stories find them, and gives you places to hang out where swearing is generally not appropriate, and where the people who piss you off and who you piss off are unlikely to show up. You can’t tell her where to go or what to do or how to post! Stop trying to push her back into her little corner! (channeling) ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/11 "2024-04-19T14:59:07Z")
iiandyiiii gets it. There’s just no reason to compare Jews to Nazis other than to troll them. It’s not like there’s any shortage of other examples of colonialist ethnic cleansing you could use. To take another example, strongly opposing the ongoing Chinese atrocities in Tibet is always appropriate, and doing so isn’t anti-Chinese racism. If, in speaking to a Chinese person, you said China’s actions were “worse than the Nazis”, you’d just be hyperbolic. If you chose to say it was “worse than the rape of Nanking”, you’re being a dick. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/12 "2024-04-19T15:01:47Z")
At the risk of trying to start a serious conversation on the 26th page of a Pit thread, Israel is often called an “apartheid State”. As someone with firsthand experience, how do you feel about that analogy? (to Mr Dibble, obviously) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/13 "2024-04-19T15:06:23Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > It’s not like there’s any shortage of other examples of colonialist ethnic cleansing you could use. But the Nazis _are_ the worst. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > If you chose to say it was “worse than the rape of Nanking”, you’re being a dick. Yes, you would very much be a dick. But I disagree that you would be being racist against the Chinese for using that example. > [@What were you THINKING?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/2589): > > Israel is often called an “apartheid State”. As someone with firsthand experience, how do you feel about that analogy? Alessan once persuaded me that wasn’t the case. Then Israel persuaded me, very hard, that it is, in fact, the case. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/14 "2024-04-19T15:10:23Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > to compare Jews to Nazis Yeah that, almost certainly, is anti-Semitic . . . now comparing Israel to Nazi (Germany) on the other hand… Or do we want to adopt the very anti-Semitic claim that all, non-Israeli, Jews have dual loyalties? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/15 "2024-04-19T15:12:55Z")
Comparing any regime anywhere that didn’t start a world war within six years of taking power to Nazi Germany is inappropriate IMO. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/16 "2024-04-19T15:31:08Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > If you chose to say it was “worse than the rape of Nanking”, you’re being a dick. I think there’s wide agreement that he was being a dick. There’s a difference between being a dick and being antisemitic. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/17 "2024-04-19T15:38:38Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Comparing any regime anywhere that didn’t start a world war within six years of taking power to Nazi Germany is inappropriate IMO. And IMO, that’s just special pleading. When the thing you’re comparing them on is as specific as, say, committing genocide, whether they also did or didn’t start World Wars is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/18 "2024-04-22T12:08:23Z")
> [@What were you THINKING?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/2579): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > MrDibble’s claim that his original post could have just been hyperbole to express emotion. ⁢ > > That was not my claim. I specifically said he was being a hyperbolic dick to troll. From my first post: > > > [@Bad Moderation in "Hamas Attacks Israel" MPSIMS thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-moderation-in-hamas-attacks-israel-mpsims-thread/1000412/12): > > > > Was he trolling for reaction? I’d say yes ⁢ > > I just disagree that trolling the particular group he set out to troll constitutes antisemitism, to any degree. > > And since we’re in the Pit : fuck off with thinking your very poor readings of any of my previous posts on particular racists have any relevance here. You’re not going to catch me in whatever pseudo-logical gotcha you were attempting, because my stance is consistent. But do feel free to try it on here in the Pit, where I can give your personalizing of the argument all due reverence… ⁢ There’s no contradiction here. You also said what I said. > Look, my feeling is - once you believe, as I do, that both the Nazis and IOF are génocidaires, expressing Shock! and Horror! that anyone even dare make the comparison or say someone is worse than the Nazis just starts seeming like sowing FUD of a different kind. You were saying that the comparison is an okay thing to say as an emotional reaction. And I have no problem continuing the argument here, but I don’t quite know what you mean by “personalizing the argument.” If it means referencing perceived inconsistencies with what you’ve said in the past, then I don’t understand why you object. I would expect the same from others. I can either explain why it isn’t inconsistent, or reevaluate to see if I am or was wrong. But I can try to avoid it. I still contend that people calling you antisemitic should not be relevant when determining if a poster was being antisemitic. You are not evaluating based on any Doper’s say-so. You can look at what the poster said, and look at the logic in the arguments being made to claim it was antisemitic. I also think you’re conflating “said something antisemitic” with “being an antisemite”. I agree with you that there is insufficient evidence that Crane is an antisemite. But I do think there is enough evidence to show that, on the whole, what he said is antisemitic. And I don’t agree with you that his statement only attacked Zionists, because Zionists were not the only ones harmed in the Holocaust. Any downplaying of what happened in the Holocaust attacks all Jewish people. His attack trolled Jewish people as a whole, and trolling a specific ethnicity is bigotry towards that ethnicity. I also just don’t agree that ignorance means something isn’t bigoted, as a general principle. I do not agree that the message that antebellum Black slaves were not really mistreated by their masters is not racists, even if the person who says it really didn’t know they were wrong. The claim itself is racist, just like a claim that minimizes how the Waffen SS treated Jewish people. In fact, the only way I can see Crane to believe that they were “kinder” is that he heard it from some neo-Nazis. Finally, I will say that I thought the principles behind what I’m saying was stuff we agreed on, based on things you’ve said in the past. My reaction was more of being bewildered by your arguments. But, if you are not being inconsistent, then I will take that under advisement and reassess my understanding of what you have said in the past. Because you were the last person I thought I’d see argue that what Crane said wasn’t antisemitic, and the last person I thought would make the arguments you did. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/19 "2024-04-22T12:59:41Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > There’s no contradiction here. “just” means something. It took you 4 days to come up with this bullshit? Fuck. Off. > [@BigT](#): > > he comparison is an okay thing to say as an emotional reaction. No, I was saying it was to _elicit_ an emotional reaction, not as an expression of Crane’s _own_ emotions. Just stop trying to read into what I post and try actually reading what’s literally there. The comparison is an OK thing to say because comparing one set of génocidaires to another set _on how they conduct their genocide_ is an OK thing to do. > [@BigT](#): > > If it means referencing perceived inconsistencies with what you’ve said in the past _Misperceived_ inconsistencies, but yes, they are absolutely irrelevant. Because the argument I’m making has fuck-all to do with me or what my attitudes to other racist has been. I don’t need to be consistent. I could be wildly inconsistent (I’m not). It would not matter to the substance of _this_ argument. It’s, in fact, the very model of a modern _ad hominem_. If I _were_ a hypocrite (I’m not) that matters not a fuck to _this_ argument. > [@BigT](#): > > I still contend that people calling you antisemitic should not be relevant when determining if a poster was being antisemitic. It’s not. It’s relevant to whether I even bother to check beyond the clear words. > [@BigT](#): > > You can look at what the poster said, and look at the logic in the arguments being made to claim it was antisemitic. I did that. They were not. > [@BigT](#): > > I also think you’re conflating “said something antisemitic” with “being an antisemite”. Distinction without difference, when the issue is whether he gets a warning for antisemitic utterances. _Antisemite_ is quicker to type than _person who said something antisemitic_. > [@BigT](#): > > Zionists were not the only ones harmed in the Holocaust No shit. You don’t say! > [@BigT](#): > > Any downplaying of what happened in the Holocaust attacks all Jewish people. Elevating the IOF actions isn’t the same as downplaying the Nazis. It’s emphasizing how truly abhorrent the IOF are. If I (hypothetically) said Pol Pot or Stalin was in some ways worse than Hitler, does that mean I’m being antisemitc? I don’t fucking think so. > [@BigT](#): > > , based on things you’ve said in the past. The fact that we’ve had arguments about this kind of thing in the past should clue you into the fact that you have very little comprehension of my stance on many things, and never have had. > [@BigT](#): > > Because you were the last person I thought I’d see argue that what Crane said wasn’t antisemitic Really? What the ever-living fuck would make you think I’d fall for this “anti-Zionist necessarily equals antisemitic” bullshit the IOF-fondlers would like us all to swallow as though it were true, based off anything I’ve ever posted on colonialism, Israel or … anything at all, really? Just so we’re clear - I, for one, don’t regard the Holocaust as special or sacrosanct in any way, shape or form. It was the worst genocide we’ve had so far by absolute bodycount, _and that’s it_. That doesn’t leave it immune to use in comparisons, that doesn’t preclude some _aspects_ of other genocides being worse atrocities (Unit 731 being _far_ worse than what Mengele and co did, for example), and it certainly doesn’t make all usages of those comparisons antisemitic. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/20 "2024-04-23T06:33:51Z")
@hajario Since the relevant thread was closed: > [@Bad Moderation in "Hamas Attacks Israel" MPSIMS thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-moderation-in-hamas-attacks-israel-mpsims-thread/1000412/56): > > You know what is also completely unacceptable? Non-Jews telling us how we are supposed to feel about shit like this. Imagine if it were any other group. Just _imagine_… Wait, I don’t have to “imagine”. It’s always been the reality for Black and Brown posters here. White people tell Black and Brown people how they should feel about racism All. The. Fucking. Time. On this board. Banquet\_Bear, an indigenous Brown person, has been modded quite frequently for speaking his feelings about indigenous genocide and other related topics. He’s one of the very, very few actual indigenous people on the damn board, and he gets handled like this: > [@Engineer\_comp\_geek, are you \*aware\* how racist this moderation sounds?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/engineer-comp-geek-are-you-aware-how-racist-this-moderation-sounds/944129): > > [This modding:](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-unmarked-grave-thread-should-be-reopened/943738/72) I realize that this is a hot button topic for you. Perhaps you should avoid posting about it here on the SDMB (except perhaps in the Pit). As things currently stand, your anger makes you blow things out of proportion and take things the wrong way, so much so that you are developing a pattern of derailing threads with it. No, of course you’re not aware. Because you apparently have no idea that [angry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Buck) [PoC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angry_black_woman) tropes are a thing. Seriously - what’s more racist than the non-Indigenous … I’ve lost count of the number of times White posters and mods have told me _my_ feelings on racist topics are flat-out wrong. Jews playing “more oppressed than thou” would be amusing - if it wasn’t so _very_ fucking wrong. Let’s see Thing.Fish get a topic ban suggested about posting about antisemitism outside the Pit… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742.md?page=2)