# The Crane Brouhaha over Gaza, Pit edition **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2024, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742 "2024-04-19T08:11:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/21 "2024-04-23T06:54:39Z")
I am disappointed in you, Mr. Dibble. I agree that racist tone policing has been a big problem with the moderation on this board, and I have tried my best to be an ally. I’m sorry you can’t treat me and the other Jews on the board with the same respect. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/22 "2024-04-23T07:19:08Z")
Happy to treat Jews with respect. You haven’t seen me get personal with the pro-Israel posters in these threads much, have you? Not going to _coddle_ you though, by avoiding any and all comparisons between the IOF and other killers, and _certainly_ not going to stand by without comment while some of you launch your laughably misguided attempt at an Oppression Olympics gold medal. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I have tried my best to be an ally So are _you_ going to call **hajario** out for that _not even wrong_ attempt at Jewish Exceptionalism? Because _that_ would be allyship. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/23 "2024-04-23T07:35:02Z")
I don’t see any “exceptionalism” in what hajario wrote. It sucks when members of minority groups are told that they aren’t capable of deciding when somebody is being offensive toward them because they aren’t “objective”. Jews are certainly far from being the most marginalized group in Western society or on this board, but it sucks whenever it happens to anybody. Quite a few long-time and generally respected posters, some of whom have been vociferously critical of Israel’s current actions, have agreed with my complaints against Crane. I would hope at some point you would think “maybe there’s something here that I don’t fully understand, but I’m going to defer to those who have lived experience around this issue”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/24 "2024-04-23T07:42:43Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I don’t see any problem with what hajario wrote. You have no problem with what this means? > [@Bad Moderation in "Hamas Attacks Israel" MPSIMS thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-moderation-in-hamas-attacks-israel-mpsims-thread/1000412/56): > > Imagine if it were any other group. Because to me it means he’s saying no other group is told how they’re supposed to feel about shit like this. I’m not asking Jews to be “objective”, BTW. I _am_ asking them to be less hyperbolic with calling all criticism of the IOF antisemitic, or equating all anti-Zionist sentiment with antisemitism. Hell, even if I thought Israel didn’t have a right to exist as an ethnostate, that _still_ wouldn’t be antisemitic. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/25 "2024-04-23T08:01:06Z")
Well, if Hajario actually believes that no other group experiences this, he is very, very wrong. But I think you’re reading way too much into this phrasing, and that he doesn’t believe anything of the kind. I absolutely agree that criticism of Israel, including anti-Zionist sentiment, isn’t necessarily anti-Semitic. But **some** of it is, and Crane’s Jew-baiting falls squarely into that category. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/26 "2024-04-23T08:16:19Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > But I think you’re reading way too much into this phrasing, and that he doesn’t believe anything of the kind. I am taking the plain reading of his words exactly as he wrote them. If he was being metaphorically hyperbolic, he’s free to say so. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > But **some** of it is, and Crane’s Jew-baiting falls squarely into that category. I still fail to see it as Jew-baiting., That it was targeted at a subset of Jews doesn’t rise to Jew-baiting, any more than, say, yelling invective at evangelical doorbell-ringers ([with a sword!](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/you-sneaky-little-jehovahs-witness-bastard/232042/31)) makes one anti-Christian. I have explicitly said I think he was trolling. I think he used particularly hurtful-to-Jews imagery to do so. I don’t think he attacked them _because those targets were Jews_. Not all IOF cheerleaders on this board are, AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/27 "2024-04-23T08:45:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I have explicitly said I think he was trolling. I think he used particularly hurtful-to-Jews imagery to do so. OK, I don’t really think we have anything to argue about then. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/28 "2024-04-23T13:36:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > He’s one of the very, very few actual indigenous people on the damn board, If we pretend that the Jewish people are mean nasty colonizers rather than _also_ an indigenous people, you’d have a point. In actuality, Jewish people _and_ Palestinians are both Indigenous to the Levant; despite a concentrated campaign of erasure, we cannot forget this fact. Banquet\_Bear doesn’t have a unique authority to speak on behalf of Palestinians. He is about as removed from the situation as it is physically possible to be, without being on the moon. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/29 "2024-04-23T13:37:53Z")
> [@What were you THINKING?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/2606): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > I have explicitly said I think he was trolling. I think he used particularly hurtful-to-Jews imagery to do so. > > OK, I don’t really think we have anything to argue about then. So, since the ATMB thread is (rightfully, alas) closed at the moment, I’ll ask here. I agree that he was trolling. I agree that he chose imagery that is hurtful to Jews. And i moderated the post and told him to stop. But you think that because it was only a mod note and a threat to be banned from the thread, and not a formal warning, that the site is antisemitic and should put a swastika in the banner? (I think that was you.) WTF? Also, for the record, I’m a Jew. I practice enough that i hosted a seder last night. Admittedly, my left-wing crowd was uncomfortable with parts of the text, and the starvation in Palestine was brought up several times during the service. But most of the people at the table (including all the people who interrupted to talk about Palestine) are Jews. We are pro-Jewish. I’m just anti slamming people for going overboard on emotional topics. I believe that a time out is better than a spanking in those cases. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/30 "2024-04-23T14:04:51Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I agree that he was trolling. I agree that he chose imagery that is hurtful to Jews. And i moderated the post and told him to stop > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’m just anti slamming people for going overboard on emotional topics These two statements don’t jive for me. I get not coming down too hard on people for emotional topics if they, for example, cross over the line and insult someone. But trolling isn’t something you do because you were feeling a lot of emotion and slipped up. Trolling is something you calculate and plan in order to elicit the maximum emotional response. Trolling a highly emotional topics seems _worse_ to me than trolling a less charged topic, the opposite of something like a personal insult where we can understand why a slip up happened. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/31 "2024-04-23T14:06:20Z")
People who feel very strongly often care a lot about getting a reaction. I think there’s real overlap there. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/32 "2024-04-23T14:17:14Z")
> [@What were you THINKING?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/2610): > > The title was changed, at the request of the op, > [@What were you THINKING?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/2611): > > That wasn’t the thread’s original title, though Aah, that does make a difference, then. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/33 "2024-04-23T14:17:37Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > People who feel very strongly often care a lot about getting a reaction. I think there’s real overlap there To me, trolling implies disingenuousness, and people who actually care about something aren’t disingenuous about it. Anyways, since the ATMB thread is closed and the matter appears to be settled, I won’t waste my breath further; I’ll just note my disappointment, as well as my lack of surprise, and move on. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/34 "2024-04-23T14:28:22Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If we pretend that the Jewish people are mean nasty colonizers rather than _also_ an indigenous people, you’d have a point. They could be (historically) indigenous to the region and _still_ mean, nasty colonizers. > [@Babale](#): > > Banquet\_Bear doesn’t have a unique authority to speak on behalf of Palestinians. Didn’t claim he did. Palestinians weren’t even the indigenous group in the thread I was referring to. > [@Babale](#): > > He is about as removed from the situation as it is physically possible to be, without being on the moon. That’s got squat to do with whether his facts are correct. And he’s always brought plenty of facts, vs your fellow travellers’ content-free “But, Hamas!” caterwauling. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/35 "2024-04-23T14:37:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Palestinians weren’t even the indigenous group in the thread I was referring to. I thought you were talking about a different instance where he was moderated more recently, but I see your ATMB thread is from 2021, so never mind. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/36 "2024-04-23T15:47:03Z")
> [@Bad Moderation in "Hamas Attacks Israel" MPSIMS thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-moderation-in-hamas-attacks-israel-mpsims-thread/1000412/56): > > > [@Bad Moderation in "Hamas Attacks Israel" MPSIMS thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-moderation-in-hamas-attacks-israel-mpsims-thread/1000412/56): > > > > Imagine if it were any other group. > > Because to me it means he’s saying no other group is told how they’re supposed to feel about shit like this. Doesn’t read that way to me. Reads to me that he expects there to be criticism if it’s members of other groups. There was a whole long thread on here objecting to that moderation of Banquet Bear. Didn’t succeed in getting it stopped; but it didn’t just slide by without reaction. > [@What were you THINKING?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/2612): > > In actuality, Jewish people _and_ Palestinians are both Indigenous to the Levant; despite a concentrated campaign of erasure, we cannot forget this fact. Also a very good, and entirely accurate, point. The problem isn’t that one set of people has a legitimate claim to the land and the other set doesn’t. The problem is that both sets of people have a legitimate claim to the exact same land and, while many individuals on both sides are willing to live with each other, all too many of them are not. > [@What were you THINKING?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/2617): > > To me, trolling implies disingenuousness, and people who actually care about something aren’t disingenuous about it. I think it’s quite possible to troll about a subject one’s sincere about. The line between that, and vehemently arguing for one’s cause, is somewhat blurry. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/37 "2024-04-23T21:33:54Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The problem isn’t that one set of people has a legitimate claim to the land and the other set doesn’t. The problem is that both sets of people have a legitimate claim to the exact same land and, while many individuals on both sides are willing to live with each other, all too many of them are not. Well now that is tricky. Is cultural heritage by itself enough to give rise to a legitimate claim to the land? Or is this just another example of people colonizing first, claiming title later, not unlike how indigenous peoples have been deprived of their land I’m the Americas and elsewhere. And of course, when indigenous peoples in the US seek to reclaim land that they haven’t even completely vacated, and arguably only lost (if at all) a couple hundred years ago, the official position of the US and state governments has typically been “Sorry, no. Even if you didn’t transfer ownership, you waited too long to bring a claim. [Laches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laches_(equity)) and all that.” Which isn’t to say that such a response to allegedly dormant claims to land ownership is the appropriate response, just that such distant claims to ownership only seem to get traction when it’s about carving up the Levant for people who have much more recent history in Europe than anywhere else (not unlike, say, the people who colonized the Americas). ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/38 "2024-04-23T21:51:37Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Or is this just another example of people colonizing first, claiming title later, not unlike how indigenous peoples have been deprived of their land I’m the Americas and elsewhere. Now _this_ is very clearly anti-Semitic erasure of Jewish indigenous identity, and you can fuck _right_ off with that bullshit. Even ignoring the Jewish people who stayed in Israel throughout history, [and despite the best efforts of the Crusaders (who probably came closest to fully wiping us out in our homeland), _some_ Jews always remained] we were never _allowed_ to become indigenous anywhere else, not without having our identity completely stripped away (and look up what happened to converted people in Iberia to see that even converting didn’t always work). ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/39 "2024-04-23T22:08:35Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Now _this_ is very clearly anti-Semitic erasure of Jewish indigenous identity Fine, then fucking report it, you disingenuous fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742/40 "2024-04-23T22:10:39Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Fine, then fucking report it What good would THAT do? You’re allowed to be an anti-Semitic piece of shit in the Pit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crane-brouhaha-over-gaza-pit-edition/1000742.md?page=3)