# The creation of Israel was not a colonial project **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2023, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967 "2023-10-23T18:48:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/201 "2023-10-25T13:47:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I would support the Irish in that scenario, I think–but not because it’s their ancestral homeland. That’s the part I find unpersuasive. Where your distant ancestors lived long before you were born is not relevant to modern public policy I agree with this. And in fact so did the early Zionists. But between the facts that Israel did have a Jewish population, that it was sparsely populated, and that the Ottomans were lukewarm rather than completely hostile made it a practical choice, too. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/202 "2023-10-25T13:49:42Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I agree with this. And in fact so did the early Zionists. But between the facts that Israel did have a Jewish population, that it was sparsely populated, and that the Ottomans were lukewarm rather than completely hostile made it a practical choice, too. Yeah–that’s why I separated the “ancestral homeland” argument out from the others. It’s definitely one I’ve encountered, both in this thread and from Jewish friends. Unlike other arguments in favor of Israel, it’s not persuasive to me. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2023, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/203 "2023-10-31T00:17:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > I don’t think the Americans would have allowed the mass migration of all the Jews that went to Israel to go to America instead. > > Immediately after the war, with the Holocaust fresh in public memory (and the actual memory of many GIs)? I think they might have, actually… You don’t have to look at “might have”. You can look at actual history. To add to what I see @Thing.Fish said: > **[America Denied Refugees After the End of World War II—Just As We Are Today](https://time.com/5889460/american-history-war-on-immigrants/)** > > After World War Two, the U.S. prevented many Jewish survivors from coming here due to prejudice. We are making the same mistakes today. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The number of years that a person can go back and claim that a place is their homeland is exactly equal to their age. In that case, almost none of the population of the West Bank and Gaza is entitled to claim any portion of the current state of Israel as their homeland. I don’t think that telling them that will solve the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2023, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/204 "2023-10-31T01:00:33Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > In that case, almost none of the population of the West Bank and Gaza is entitled to claim any portion of the current state of Israel as their homeland. > > I don’t think that telling them that will solve the problem. It won’t. There’s a difference between a moral imperative and a political compromise. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2023, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/205 "2023-11-01T02:03:05Z")
Here’s an accessible link to the recent _Atlantic_ piece by historian Simon Sebag Montefiore. > **[The Decolonization Narrative Is Dangerous and False](https://web.archive.org/web/20231028195532/https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/)** > > It does not accurately describe either the foundation of Israel or the tragedy of the Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2023, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/206 "2023-11-01T05:47:33Z")
Although, as has been noted, that article makes many good points, it doesn’t represent a consensus about the (in)applicability of the concept of “settler colonialism” to Israel, even among Zionist scholars. Sebag Montefiore says: > [@](#): > > The decolonization narrative has dehumanized Israelis to the extent that otherwise rational people excuse, deny, or support barbarity. It holds that Israel is an “imperialist-colonialist” force, that Israelis are “settler-colonialists,” and that Palestinians have a right to eliminate their oppressors. While it certainly needs to be agreed that “elimination” of people by violence is immoral and heinous, not everybody thinks that it’s necessary to repudiate the “settler colonialism” concept in order to do that. For example, as [Arnon Degani wrote in Ha’aretz in 2016,](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308204638_Israel_is_a_Settler_Colonial_State_-_And_Thats_OK) > [@](#): > > Israel Is a Settler Colonial State - and That’s OK > > […] Without entering into all the rich theory behind the concept, settler colonial states are those that have been established through the movement of settlers from one part of the world to another, transforming that territory into their own independent country – separate from an imperial center. In all historical cases, this transformation was achieved through forms of violence committed against indigenous culture, indigenous land possession, their political standing and their very physical existence. Many prosperous and democratic nations fall within this rough definition, most notably of course, the world’s only superpower – the United States of America. […] > > In fact, rigorous scholars who study the applicability of the settler colonial framework for the history of Israel/Palestine need not subscribe to a political agenda committed to the end of the State of Israel. Moreover, claiming that structurally, Zionist settlers are comparable to American pioneers or South African Voortrekkers, does not necessitate the denial of a historical connection between Jews and the Holy Land, the unique nature of European anti-Semitism, or even requires having sympathy for the Palestinian armed struggle against Zionism. As a matter of fact, even prominent Zionists made explicit comparisons between their own political movement and those of settlers around the world. > > Don’t believe me? Go ask Haim Arlosoroff, who in 1927 wrote “I think it is worth trying to find an equivalent to our problem in the annals of settlement of other countries”. According to Arlosoroff comparisons with the US, Australian and New Zealand cases were unhelpful for the particular question he had in mind but South Africa was “almost the only case in which there is similarity in the objective conditions and problems so as to allow us an analogy”. > > Arlosoroff is too much of a leftist? Fine! Zeev “the-Iron-Wall” Jabotinsky himself had no problem comparing the Zionists to “the Pilgrim Fathers, the first real pioneers of North America” and the Palestinian-Arabs and Eretz Yisrael to the “Sioux and their rolling prairies.” In fact, Jabotinsky’s fundamental revisionist argument – that a peaceful resolution with the Palestinians is not possible – was based on his frank recognition that “all natives resist colonists”. > > My suggestion that Zionists and Israelis shouldn’t be afraid of the label settler colonists, does not mean that it has no negative implications or that settler colonial studies is uncritical of Zionism and Israel. In the main, this analytical framework imposes on us an understanding that Palestinian displacement, in one form or another, was inherent in all forms of Zionism. If however the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is in fact a history of settler colonialism, it may also suggest possibilities for moving forward. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/207 "2023-11-03T11:52:31Z")
Claims that Israel is a “colonial project” or some sort of artificial construct of the post-WWII British Empire are nothing more than attempts to de-legitimize the Jewish state by radical Islamic fundamentalist and their antisemitic leftist supporters in order to justify further atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/208 "2023-11-03T15:48:54Z")
Are you making an exception for all the Zionist founding fathers who explicitly called themselves colonialists? How do you square the cognitive dissonance between that and your categorical statement? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2023, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/209 "2023-11-03T18:40:48Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > How do you square the cognitive dissonance between that and your categorical statement? I don’t know, how do you square the cognitive dissonance between your stance and those Zionists who did not see their project as colonialist? Clearly, I disagree with those early Zionists who viewed this as a colonialist enterprise and agree with those who do not. Also, just because you compare some aspects of your nation’s founding to the experiences of colonialist nations does not mean that the two countries are identical in every way. Finally, not all colonies are created equal, and when we speak of Colonialism we generally mean something specific. The colonialist framework that applies to the Great Powers exploiting lands in Africa, Americas, and Asia is not necessarily applicable to many other things specifically called ‘colonies’, such as the Phonecian or Greek colonies of the ancient world (which incidentally were very different _from one another_ as well). I think it would be a myopic oversimplification to apply Colonialist frameworks to understanding the relationship between the Carthaginians and the Amazigh of North Africa or the Celtiberians of Spain, or the Greeks of Syracuse and the native Sicilians. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/210 "2023-11-04T00:02:58Z")
I just think it’s interesting to see a Zionist arguing against Herzl of all people. That’s kind of like an American patriot saying that George Washington got his idea of government all wrong. I hadn’t known that such discourse existed until now. It wasn’t until this thread and similar recent discussions that I even learned that some Zionist founding fathers considered themselves colonialists. We’re seeing some intense re-examinations of history. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/211 "2023-11-04T18:00:35Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Claims that Israel is a “colonial project” or some sort of artificial construct of the post-WWII British Empire are nothing more than attempts to de-legitimize the Jewish state by radical Islamic fundamentalist and their antisemitic leftist supporters in order to justify further atrocities. I’m sorry but life is not this simple. Israel IS to some extent a colonial project. On the other hand, the concept of colonialism absolutely is used by a wide range of asshats to justify murder. On the other hand, many Israelis - most, I think - were born in Israel, know no other land, and cannot be called “Colonizers” in any way that makes a damn bit of sense. But then on the other hand, Israelis are actively stealing homes and land from Muslims in the West Bank right now. I can write fifty more sentences adding complexity to all this. Israel was a colonial project, but it also wasn’t. But it is. But it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/212 "2023-11-04T19:32:08Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Claims that Israel is a “colonial project” or some sort of artificial construct of the post-WWII British Empire are nothing more than attempts to de-legitimize the Jewish state by radical Islamic fundamentalist and their antisemitic leftist supporters in order to justify further atrocities. Point of order - I _don’t_ beat my wife. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/213 "2023-11-04T19:34:13Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > On the other hand, many Israelis - most, I think - were born in Israel, know no other land, and cannot be called “Colonizers” in any way that makes a damn bit of sense By this argument, South African Whites can’t be called colonizers either. I absolutely reject any argument that leads to that conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/214 "2023-11-04T19:41:29Z")
Is this based on ancestry or something else? Do mixed children of White South Africans count as colonizers? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/215 "2023-11-04T19:43:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is this based on ancestry or something else? It’s based on continued benefit from the colonial system. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do mixed children of White South Africans count as colonizers? Since they were on the wrong end of Apartheid and specifically excluded from power, no, they do not. Ask me how I (with my White mother and non-White father) know? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/216 "2023-11-04T19:49:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > By this argument, South African Whites can’t be called colonizers either. South African Whites as an ethnic group created themselves by going to South Africa as colonists. Jews as an ethnic group were created by the imperialist actions of ancient middle eastern empires who destroyed the kingdoms of Israel and Judea and deported their peoples, and by the Persians who put them back. In this way, Jews are similar to African Americans, which is another ethnic group created through the blending of cultures by an imperialist power. Subgroups like Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrahi, etc formed through the actions of yet more imperialist powers like the Romans, the Franks, the Caliphates, etc - again, most of this through things that were done _to_ the Jewish people rather than through their own choices. I think that’s a meaningful distinction. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/217 "2023-11-04T19:51:27Z")
Okay. I’m not trying for a “gotcha”, that just seems like an awfully broad descriptor. It doesn’t seem to distinguish those who’ve benefited without necessarily materially supporting and assisting the supremacist enterprises from those who materially support and/or instituted these discriminatory systems. Perhaps because I fall into the first but not the latter grouping, that distinction seems important to me. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/218 "2023-11-04T19:53:07Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > South African Whites as an ethnic group created themselves by going to South Africa as colonists. South African Whites aren’t a monolithic ethnic group. For one thing, there’s a large group of Jews here. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/219 "2023-11-04T19:54:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It doesn’t seem to distinguish those who’ve benefited without necessarily materially supporting and assisting the supremacist enterprises from those who materially support and/or instituted these discriminatory systems. Do you think the distinction matters to non-White South Africans? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/220 "2023-11-04T19:56:13Z")
Well, you would know much better than I, certainly. But doesn’t it matter sometimes? I presume some Whites were allies in the fight against Apartheid. That’s an important distinction, surely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967.md?page=12)