# The creation of Israel was not a colonial project **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2023, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967 "2023-10-23T18:48:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/221 "2023-11-04T19:57:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I presume some Whites were allies in the fight against Apartheid That just means they were good/reformed colonizers. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/222 "2023-11-04T19:58:03Z")
But that means I have to live with the colonizer label forever! WAAAAAH! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/223 "2023-11-04T20:01:27Z")
Wow, for a second there I really felt… _fragile._ ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/224 "2023-11-04T20:02:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > By this argument, South African Whites can’t be called colonizers either. > > I absolutely reject any argument that leads to that conclusion. Well, I’m sorry reality doesn’t align with your desires. Actually, to be more charitable, maybe you mean “colonizer” in a way not consistent with what the word actually means. Or used to mean. Who knows; it’s now a sensationally overused word that seems to mean whatever people want it to mean. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/225 "2023-11-04T20:14:12Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > maybe you mean “colonizer” in a way not consistent with what the word actually means I mean people who settle in a colony, and their descendants who continue to benefit from being in a dominant power relationship with the colonized peoples. Which is exactly how it was meant when I did my geography courses at uni. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/226 "2023-11-04T20:18:54Z")
But what about the fragile fee-fees of my people? Who will speak for us against the tyranny of university course language?? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/227 "2023-11-04T20:20:11Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > South African Whites aren’t a monolithic ethnic group. > > For one thing, there’s a large group of Jews here. Jews can be colonists in one place and not colonists in another. The white colonists of South Africa wouldn’t be colonists in England or Netherlands, no? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/228 "2023-11-04T20:22:12Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I mean people who settle in a colony, and their descendants who continue to benefit from being in a dominant power relationship with the colonized peoples. How long does that label hold for? Are Arabs in Morocco colonizers of the Amazigh people to this day, for example? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/229 "2023-11-04T20:28:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > How long does that label hold for? As long as it fits. > [@Babale](#): > > Are Arabs in Morocco colonizers of the Amazigh people to this day, for example? [Yes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berberism). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/230 "2023-11-04T20:31:20Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Jews can be colonists in one place and not colonists in another. Sure. > [@Babale](#): > > The white colonists of South Africa wouldn’t be colonists in England or Netherlands, no? Are they coming in and establishing hegemony over the indigenous population of England/Holland? No? Then no. Which of the two situations is Israel more like? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/231 "2023-11-04T20:32:53Z")
Maybe this gets a little silly, but what about those relatively small number of Israeli Jews (and their descendants) who have lived in Israel since ancient times? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/232 "2023-11-04T20:33:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > what about those relatively small number of Israeli Jews (and their descendants) who have lived in Israel since ancient times? They’re _not_ colonizers? They don’t make the overall Israel project not colonial, though. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/233 "2023-11-04T20:35:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Are Arabs in Morocco colonizers of the Amazigh people to this day, for example? > > [Yes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berberism). But Arabs in Israel are not colonizers of the Jews because…? If the answer is “because in the 1100s onwards a series of devestating European crusades intentionally wiped out the Jewish population the area so the Arabs didn’t have to genocide the Jews themselves” that seems a bit unfair. I’m super sympathetic to Berberism (and to the Kurds and to the Assyrians and so on) because, as a Zionist, I see echoes of my own history in theirs. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/234 "2023-11-04T20:36:10Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > But Arabs in Israel are not colonizers of the Jews because…? They’re not the dominant group in the current unequal hegemonic relationship? They _were_ the colonizers. But not anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/235 "2023-11-04T20:36:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Are they coming in and establishing hegemony over the indigenous population of England/Holland? No? Then no. I mean, yes, they did. The English people who came to South Africa descend from Anglo-Saxon colonists who displaced the native Brythonic peoples of England. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/236 "2023-11-04T20:37:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > They’re not the dominant group in the current unequal hegemonic relationship? So if in 1948 Palestine was established as an Arab state with dominion over the whole place, then the Palestinians would be colonizers of the Jews? I am asking these questions because I think if the term “colonizer” is that broad it becomes less meaningful. To me, colonization requires exploitation of local resources and populations for the good of the home country. If that eventually turns into a self sufficient and independent country, that doesn’t change the colonial history of that nation. But I am open to having my mind changed. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/237 "2023-11-04T20:45:28Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I mean, yes, they did. Sorry, the _South African_ Whites did what? > [@Babale](#): > > The English people who came to South Africa descend from Anglo-Saxon colonists who displaced the native Brythonic peoples. It was more complicated than just replacement, but in any case, South African Whites of British descent are of quite diverse descent. Plenty of Welsh and Scottish here as well. Also, lots of French, and German and others. But I see the asinine point you’re trying to make now. No, Britain and the Netherlands are no longer colonies. Because they blended their populations (in a way that South Africa and Israel explicitly did not allow.) so who can say nowadays who’s A-S and who’s Norman and who’s British? > [@Babale](#): > > So if in 1948 Palestine was established as an Arab state with dominion over the whole place, then the Palestinians would be colonizers of the Jews? No, because the _Palestinians_ didn’t move there from Europe, America and MENA countries. Indigenes can’t be colonizers in their own place. > [@Babale](#): > > To me, colonization requires exploitation of local resources and populations for the good of the home country. I Settler Colonialism is a legitimate category of colonialism that doesn’t require continued relations with a metropole. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/238 "2023-11-04T20:57:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, because the _Palestinians_ didn’t move there from Europe, America and MENA countries. Indigenes can’t be colonizers in their own place. They moved there from the Arabian peninsula during the Arab conquests; they didn’t blend with the local population of Jews, though they did blend with the local population of Roman/Hellenic colonists who were ruling over the land. I don’t think the term “indigenous” works well for a region where multiple groups have been living side by side and churning together for thousands of years. Hell, “Indigenous” is a very Eurocentric term in general. Native Americans for example have a rich and diverse pre-European history, with plenty of their own warfare, genocide, imperialism, and colonialism. Yet all of that is compressed to nothingness by the term “indigenous” that implies the Aztecs sat around from the beginning of time until Europeans showed up. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a _useful_ term, when looking at the relationship between Europeans and the people who lived in the lands that they colonized at the time that Europeans showed up. Without that moment in time to use as a snapshot, though - in a place like the Middle East where all these people, including Europeans, have lived side by side for as long as sedentary societies have existed - “indigenous” is a bit of a hollow term. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/239 "2023-11-04T21:04:57Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > They moved there from the Arabian peninsula during the Arab conquests; No, they did not. This is some[revisionist bullshit](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/when-ancient-dna-gets-politicized-180972639/). The genes (and the archaeology) show that Palestinians [are as indigenous to Israel and Palestine as Jews.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/): > Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967/240 "2023-11-04T21:09:15Z")
I mentioned in another thread Oz Almog’s interesting book about the “Sabra” generation [second-generation Jewish settlers who grew up in Israel c. 1930–1960]. One cannot paint everyone with the same brush, but > [@](#): > > The notion of the Arab as a member of a primitive culture—less romantic and more patronizing than > the other views—was, however, the dominant one. The Arab was considered technologically and economically backward, and due to intermarriage, bad hygiene, and poor sanitation, unhealthy. Arab villages and Arab neighborhoods in the cities were full of garbage and filth, and their homes stank from fires fueled by goat droppings. The Arabs suffered from bitter poverty, illiteracy, and the peculiarities of their culture—the patriarchal and exploitative structure of the tribe and clan, the Bedouin tradition of the blood feud and spoils, and the unending battle for the honor of the man and the community. For the Jewish immigrants, these were manifestations of a primitive culture far distant from progressive European culture. Therefore, they perceived their work in Palestine not only as redeeming the land of their fathers for the Jewish people, but also as bringing modern civilization to this backward and primitive region. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-creation-of-israel-was-not-a-colonial-project/991967.md?page=13)