# The Crimson Glyph (Werewolf/Mafia/Psychopath) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 24, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271 "2009-04-24T22:16:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/181 "2009-04-30T04:10:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **me** :Correction: Assuming there are at least two Sinners to start, there exists a condition under which every player wins, if we choose to coöperate. It goes something like this: > > 1: All Sinners and Blackhearts declare. > 2: If the number of Blackhearts is two or more greater than the number of Sinners, Town executes a Blackheart. Otherwise, Town executes a Sinner. > 3: The executioner in either case should be a previously-pure Townie. E then chooses to change allegiance to the Sinner faction. The number of live Sinners is then the same as at the beginning of the game (one lost to the execution, one gained from the executioner). > > Thoughts? Your plan seems to work as you suggest it. That is the problem. I fear it works too well. \*\* This “ **plan** ” just strikes me as overly scummy. \*\* \*Incredibly scummy. \* I am just calling it as I see it. Perhaps it is your style _to assume the spoon feeding role._ If so, then I’m sure it will even out over time. If that is the case, then simply take my vote as the first day guess that everyone else is claiming theirs to be. I could be wrong here. **Vote Execute Chronos** But I doubt it. And as I understand the rules, I can’t let you get off lightly, given how I feel about it. I need to be swift here. The long and the short of it is, currently, something just doesn’t smell right with you. I need to take action now. And in this way. – If I am not long for this world, I hope other players will do the math, and deduce if you have a power role. Further, I can only hope I haven’t helpped you along with the plans of yours you haven’t shared with the rest of the class. This move is either Insane or Brilliant. I see either as an advantage in this, and other games. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/182 "2009-04-30T04:13:42Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > That’s not cool man. Not when the noob has to talk him self up, more than once on making a vote he honestly feels he needs to make. > > Get ready for my NETA vote that I have currently in another browser window. Oh, I wouldn’t do it in _this_ game. But it’s perfect for one I have in the works… ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/183 "2009-04-30T04:23:20Z")
Vote Count: AngeloftheNorth (2): Special Ed, Spurious George Spurious George (4): Chronos, AllWalker, Mahaloth, Spurious George Chronos (1): Meeko E (2): Spurious George, Meeko O (5): Special Ed, Chronos, AllWalker, Mahaloth, Joey P. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/184 "2009-04-30T04:42:19Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Vote Count: > AngeloftheNorth (2): Special Ed, Spurious George > Spurious George (4): Chronos, AllWalker, Mahaloth, Spurious George > Chronos (1): Meeko > > E (2): Spurious George, Meeko > O (5): Special Ed, Chronos, AllWalker, Mahaloth, Joey P. Interesting. The votes to ostracize/execute seem to count even if they aren’t for the person who is the lynch leader ---
**Author:** ![Telcontar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Telcontar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telcontar)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/185 "2009-04-30T04:43:21Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Your plan seems to work as you suggest it. That is the problem. I fear it works too well. > > \*\* > This “ **plan** ” just strikes me as overly scummy. \*\* > > \*Incredibly scummy. \* > > I am just calling it as I see it. Perhaps it is your style _to assume the spoon feeding role._ If so, then I’m sure it will even out over time. > > If that is the case, then simply take my vote as the first day guess that everyone else is claiming theirs to be. > > I could be wrong here. > > **Vote Execute Chronos** > > But I doubt it. And as I understand the rules, I can’t let you get off lightly, given how I feel about it. I need to be swift here. > > The long and the short of it is, currently, something just doesn’t smell right with you. I need to take action now. And in this way. > > – > > If I am not long for this world, I hope other players will do the math, and deduce if you have a power role. > > Further, I can only hope I haven’t helpped you along with the plans of yours you haven’t shared with the rest of the class. > > This move is either Insane or Brilliant. I see either as an advantage in this, and other games. I too found Chronos’s plan…odd. Might be worth a first day vote. On the other hand I think Chronos is misunderstanding the scum and sinner win conditions, which marks him as “confused townie.” Having said that, I can’t make heads or tails of your (Meeko’s) post. Anyone able to help me out here, and has meeko played before? ---
**Author:** ![AllWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/db5fbb/32.png) [@AllWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AllWalker)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/186 "2009-04-30T04:48:46Z")
I think Meeko is saying that if there are Detectives or similar to look at Chronos. Maybe. Is that what he meant by deduce? Who knows. He needs to be swift because he is voting to execute and so wants to get in early. And, I guess, if he turns up dead that confirms his theory. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/187 "2009-04-30T04:57:19Z")
> [@AllWalker](#): > > I think Meeko is saying that if there are Detectives or similar to look at Chronos. Maybe. Is that what he meant by deduce? Who knows. He needs to be swift because he is voting to execute and so wants to get in early. And, I guess, if he turns up dead that confirms his theory. > > Right? I am in good company here. 😉 People I dont have to spell things out to. I like that. I am also scared by it also. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/188 "2009-04-30T05:00:17Z")
NETS (Not Edited to **SUBTRACT** ) ALSO. LOL. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/189 "2009-04-30T05:11:32Z")
As I read that: **Meeko** thinks, based on my admittedly convoluted idea, that I might be a Scum power role. Obviously I don’t agree with his conclusion, but I guess I can sort of see his argument for it. If I am indeed a Scum power role, then it’s to the Town’s advantage for me to not only be lynched, but also executed, lest I use some sort of dastardly power tonight. We know that the sin of killing me can be erased, but we don’t know that whatever scummy power I might have can be undone. > [@](#): > > On the other hand I think Chronos is misunderstanding the scum and sinner win conditions, which marks him as “confused townie.” It’s certainly possibly, and with **pedescribe** taking the “neither confirm nor deny” stance on it, my previously-posted plan becomes a lot riskier (if it goes wrong, the most likely outcome would be a victory for Blackhearts alone, which neither I nor most of you guys would be happy with). So it looks like “everyone wins” is not going to happen. A pity, but that was a lot to hope for, so I can’t really be _too_ disappointed about it failing. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/190 "2009-04-30T05:14:02Z")
> [@Telcontar](#): > > I too found Chronos’s plan…odd. You think it’s odd that Chronos is suggesting that we hand the victory to the sinners? but making sure everyone is a Sinner first? I’m afraid we might be missing something really large here, and I don’t want to give an advantage to the sinners. > [@The Rules](#): > > The town wins when every player alive is Pure. > The Blackhearts win when they control the vote. > The Sinners win when every player has the Seed of Sin within them. At first blush, that made me think he was a Sinner, because he wanted them to win. Then, I realized that his plan was basically to lynch the Sinners and have Town do the executing so they become sinners. Then I reread and thought some: > [@Chronos](#): > > 8: As of the end of the last Night, the Sinner victory condition is met: Everyone alive is sinful, so all Sinners win. The Blackheart victory condition is also met: There are N+1 live Blackhearts, N live Sinners, and nobody else, so Blackhearts are a majority, and so all Blackhearts win as well. The Pure Town faction loses, but there are no remaining players (live or dead) in the Pure Town faction, so no player loses. This assumes that the Blackhearts already are sinners. If the Blackhearts are not Sinners, they are Blackhearts and the Blackhearts win and everyone else loses because the Sinner win condition is not met. > [@The Rules](#): > > There are two anti-town groups, the Sinners and the Blackhearts. The blackhearts are like a regular scum groups, but the sinners want everyone infected with the Seed of Sin, whether the target wants it or not. > If a previously townie player is infected with the Seed of Sin, he has a choice to make: either he can change his win condition to align with that of the Sinners, or he can Pray, which, in two nights, will remove the seed of sin from him. There is no mention of Sinners tempting Blackhearts. Maybe it’s not possible, in which case, the Sinner will want the Blackhearts lynched. When the moderator was asked: > [@](#): > > Are Blackhearts considered to be already sinful, for purposes of the Sinners’ win condition? He responded: > [@The Mod](#): > > I will not answer this question, as it would unduly alter the gamestate. At this point, I was thinking that Chronos is a Blackheart hoping to steal a win from everyone else. Also, when we look at this point in Chronos’ situation: > [@Chronos](#): > > 6: Eventually, we reach a point where, at the end of the Day, we have one Pure Townie left, N live Sinners left, and N+1 live Blackhearts left. At this point, nobody has met a win condition: There exist impure players, there exist non-sinful players, and the Blackhearts are not in the majority. > 7: That Night, the Sinners tempt the last remaining Pure Townie, who accepts, and the Blackhearts murder another Sinner. If, as the Sinner tempt the last Townie, the Blackhearts kill that Townie, then the Blackhearts also win outright. Now, someone else can look through this and see if they see the same things. So, let me be a little more blunt to our Mod: **[ol] [li]Can the Sinner tempts the Blackhearts?[/li][li]If so, can the Blackhearts pray to avoid becoming sinners?[/li][li]Can the Blackhearts become Sinners through the last to vote to execute rule?[/li][li]Is it possible for more than 1 faction to win this game?[/li][/ol]** ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/191 "2009-04-30T05:16:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > As I read that: **Meeko** thinks, based on my admittedly convoluted idea, that I might be a Scum power role. Obviously I don’t agree with his conclusion, but I guess I can sort of see his argument for it. If I am indeed a Scum power role, then it’s to the Town’s advantage for me to not only be lynched, but also executed, lest I use some sort of dastardly power tonight. We know that the sin of killing me can be erased, but we don’t know that whatever scummy power I might have can be undone. > It’s certainly possibly, and with **pedescribe** taking the “neither confirm nor deny” stance on it, my previously-posted plan becomes a lot riskier (if it goes wrong, the most likely outcome would be a victory for Blackhearts alone, which neither I nor most of you guys would be happy with). So it looks like “everyone wins” is not going to happen. A pity, but that was a lot to hope for, so I can’t really be _too_ disappointed about it failing. :smack: Of course, you say this as I’m typing up my post accusing you of planning this. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/192 "2009-04-30T05:35:43Z")
I don’t think the game is constipated anymore. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/193 "2009-04-30T05:50:12Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t think the game is constipated anymore. Which is exactly why first-day votes are valuable. Right or wrong, they stimulate discussion, which helps the game achieve, er, regularity. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/194 "2009-04-30T05:58:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Which is exactly why first-day votes are valuable. Right or wrong, they stimulate discussion, which helps the game achieve, er, regularity. \*\*So, First-day votes are the Jamie Lee Curtis of Mafia? \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Dirx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Sir\_Dirx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Dirx)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/195 "2009-04-30T07:30:25Z")
I’m really sorry, everyone. The amount of work that’s been dumped on me has skyrocketed. There’s no way I can handle two mafia games on top of it, and since this game appears several orders of magnitude more complex over the other one I’m in, I’m afraid I’ve chosen to sub out of here. My time looks like it will free up significantly after a couple weeks or so, but that’s too long for my comfort; I’d rather someone more competent take my place. I’m really, really sorry. Good luck, everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/196 "2009-04-30T12:14:45Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Vote Count: > AngeloftheNorth (2): Special Ed, Spurious George > Spurious George (4): Chronos, AllWalker, Mahaloth, Spurious George > Chronos (1): Meeko > > E (2): Spurious George, Meeko > O (5): Special Ed, Chronos, AllWalker, Mahaloth, Joey P. \*\*errrr, George didn’t vote for himself, I voted for george And while we’re here, I have another question that you probably can’t answer. It appears as though E/O decesion is a majority, and it also appears that it’s the majority of ALL votes, as opposed to tallying only the votes for the vote winner. If the person is Executed, is the person who get’s the seed of sin the last person to vote execute for the lynched, or the last person to vote Execute for anyone?\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/197 "2009-04-30T14:43:41Z")
I have a quick question. I see that two votes have been placed for execution instead of ostracization. Why did you guys vote to execute instead of ostracize? It seems to me that early on in the game, when we basically are guessing, ostracization would be better, though I may be wrong. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Telcontar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Telcontar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telcontar)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/198 "2009-04-30T14:44:24Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > But I doubt it. And as I understand the rules, I can’t let you get off lightly, given how I feel about it. I need to be swift here. > > The long and the short of it is, currently, something just doesn’t smell right with you. I need to take action now. And in this way. So, this is the part I’m not quite getting. Why would we assume a power role based on a bad plan? If this is a scum play then it’s a high visibility scum play, thus suggesting a fairly low value actor. Also the case against **chronos** is much stronger if they are experienced. Anyone know? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/199 "2009-04-30T15:13:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Also the case against chronos is much stronger if they are experienced. Anyone know? First off, I would consider it cheating to lie about this sort of question (as opposed to, say, lying about my role, which would obviously not be cheating), so yes, I am actually reliable when I say this. This is the first game that I’ve actually played, though I’ve watched several others. Decide for yourself whether that constitutes “experienced”, of course. Unless you were wondering if I’ve ever seen a Jimi Hendrix show, in which case the answer is no. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/200 "2009-04-30T15:21:09Z")
What case against Chronos? That he suggested an idea that might not work out up closer examination? Nope not buying it. That’s not a case at all, even for Day 1. Don’t rush to lynch the loud, especially Day 1. I refuse to accept the “Edit and die!” concept. If the editing window were longer, sure I’d be all over that. But it’s so short here on the Dope that nothing important will be lost, and it’ll make things a heck of a lot easier to read. Plus, the less junk (which NETA, and things of that nature really are. Necessary evil in most games maybe, but not here), the better. Why are people in such a rush to Execute? It seems to me that Ostracize is almost always going to be the better option, unless we have a very good reason to believe that the person being executed is a scum power role. Sinners trying to get a band wagon going perhaps? Speaking of bandwagons, the Spurious George one actually seems like a decent day 1 Bandwagon. Those are pretty rare. But in this case, it seems likely. **Ostracize Spurious George** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271.md?page=11)