# The Crimson Glyph (Werewolf/Mafia/Psychopath) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 24, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271 "2009-04-24T22:16:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/541 "2009-05-05T19:16:12Z")
Quoth **Meeko** : > [@](#): > > 1b. Taking this just one step further, I think we have it exactly backwards. I think O helps Sinners, E helps Blackheart. First of all, what reason do you have to think that both lynch options help scum factions? I find it hard to believe that anyone would design a game where that was the case, since it would put Town in a no-win situation. Second, even if we grant for the sake of argument that each one helps one of the scum factions, what reason do you have for thinking that its O-Sinner, E-Blackheart, given that we’re explicitly told by the Mod the manner in which execution helps the Sinners? It looks to me like you’re actively trying to confuse the Town. Please, if you can, try to disabuse me of this notion. ---
**Author:** ![AngeloftheNorth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelofthenorth/32/19559_2.png) [@AngeloftheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngeloftheNorth)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/542 "2009-05-05T19:52:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **Meeko** :First of all, what reason do you have to think that both lynch options help scum factions? I find it hard to believe that anyone would design a game where that was the case, since it would put Town in a no-win situation. Second, even if we grant for the sake of argument that each one helps one of the scum factions, what reason do you have for thinking that its O-Sinner, E-Blackheart, given that we’re explicitly told by the Mod the manner in which execution helps the Sinners? > > It looks to me like you’re actively trying to confuse the Town. Please, if you can, try to disabuse me of this notion. I can tell you for sure that I’m confused. Not blaming it on Meeko…just this game is very confusing. (No offense meant, Pedescribe; I’m in awe of your intellect.) However, if we lost Telcontar and he was both an Aegis/Purge…it looks like Pedescribe gave town some serious powers to compensate for the overpowering by numbers. Now, unfortunately it looks like we may have lost our first, best defense. (I’m assuming that Telcontar wasn’t able to protect himself, because I can’t see any reason for him to have protected anyone else last night.) But we should still have some good, useful powers up our sleeve. And no, I’m not power-fishing. Don’t tell us about your powers if you have them…I’m just hoping we still have lots of them. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/543 "2009-05-05T20:41:49Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It looks to me like you’re actively trying to confuse the Town. Please, if you can, try to disabuse me of this notion. Yeah, Meeko, I highly doubt that the intricasies of ostracization and execution are as complex/confusing as you are speculating. I don’t want to stifle conversation, but some of your latest points have almost been too confusing to be worth posting. Actually, so far(and I emphasize “so far”, ostracization worked. 1. No one was recruited by the sinners for voting last for execution. This good for us. 2. Spurious has not re-shown up. While this is bad since he was a townie, it would be good if he had been scum. I guess at this point, I have to say that ostracization appears to be wise. Does everyone agree with this so far? Should we plan to ostracize again on Day Two, or has some disadvantage arisen I am unaware of? ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/544 "2009-05-05T20:53:38Z")
I’m not sure what the best course of action is for the person who was infected by the sinners last Night. I suppose if they decided to switch their win condition, they’ll remain quiet. What are the pros and cons to claiming they’ve been infected? Pros [ol] [li]We’ll know who was infected, and if honest, and they are praying, we can eliminate them from the Sinner group[/li][li]The Sinners will know they were successful in targeting someone (and maybe some people are immune)[/li][/ol] Cons [ol] [li]They could easily be a lying Sinner or Blackhert trying to get credibility[/li][li]Do we realy gain anything by giving up the information?[/li][/ol] Obviously, I’m a bit rushed and haven’t thought this through. What are everyone’s ideas? (and yes, I know some of you are Sinners and blackhearts) ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/545 "2009-05-05T20:56:03Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > 1. No one was recruited by the sinners for voting last for execution. This good for us. > > 2. Spurious has not re-shown up. While this is bad since he was a townie, it would be good if he had been scum. First off, I really don’t think osterized people are coming back. Pede mentioned that it is one of the methods of lynching. And I truly think that all the rule means is that the osterized person can use their night power that night. Which is great if you are a role blocker or a doctor or something along those lines, but if you have a power role that requires feedback (for example, a detective), it’s not going to give you any advantage. Now, on to my bigger question. What makes you so sure that no one was recruited to the sinners? How would we even know? I mean, we’d have to assume that it wouldn’t be announced as they would just wind up lynched or NK very quickly, and frankly I think all that would really do is slow down the game. I would think if someone was recruited at night, they would just get a PM stated that they are now a sinner (and a list of the others sinners if that is something that’s known to them), and MAYBE the option to pray to go back. Make sense? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/546 "2009-05-05T20:57:03Z")
NETA, I’m sorry, I just re-read that you said “for executing” nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/547 "2009-05-05T20:59:39Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Now, on to my bigger question. What makes you so sure that no one was recruited to the sinners? How would we even know? I mean, we’d have to assume that it wouldn’t be announced as they would just wind up lynched or NK very quickly, and frankly I think all that would really do is slow down the game. I would think if someone was recruited at night, they would just get a PM stated that they are now a sinner (and a list of the others sinners if that is something that’s known to them), and MAYBE the option to pray to go back. Uh, I just meant that according to my understanding, we avoided allowing an forced “sinification” of one of us townies by executing. I said that no one was recruited by voting last for execution. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/548 "2009-05-05T21:00:40Z")
Ah, ignore post 547 then, Joey. I see you figured out what I meant. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![paulwhoisaghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@paulwhoisaghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulwhoisaghost)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/549 "2009-05-05T21:26:17Z")
Two things… #1 My vote has been bought… #2 Ed you are really boring this game 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/550 "2009-05-05T21:32:52Z")
> [@](#): > > What are the pros and cons to claiming they’ve been infected? > > Pros > > 1. We’ll know who was infected, and if honest, and they are praying, we can eliminate them from the Sinner group > > 2. The Sinners will know they were successful in targeting someone (and maybe some people are immune) > Cons > > 3. They could easily be a lying Sinner or Blackhert trying to get credibility > > 4. Do we realy gain anything by giving up the information? A non-Sinner who has been infected, and who intends to remain non-Sinner, should speak up. If nobody does so, then we can conclude that the number of Sinners (or at least, people with the Sinner win condition) has probably increased. If somebody does speak up, then we know to keep an eye on that person, and also know that nobody _else_ was recruited that Night. If a Scum false-claims to have been infected when someone else really was, then the person who really was infected can counterclaim, and we know that one of them is lying (a huge benefit to the town, since wost case scenario, we lynch both). If a Scum false-claims to be infected and nobody else actually was (for whatever reason), then the end result is that keep an extra close eye on someone who really is Scum. I’m not seeing a downside to Town for infected players claiming. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/551 "2009-05-05T21:37:12Z")
It is obvious I have no clue what I am talking about. I am past trying to figure it out. The fact remains that none of us know what we are talking about. \*\*WHAT DOES OSTRACIZE MEAN IN THIS GAME? \*\* \*\* This game is broken until this is answered. \*\* The problem that I can not put to bed, despite trying to help other people figure it out is this: Execution leaves one player converting to Sin, if not checked. Night Kills are apparently given with Blackheart Propaganda. What power do Sinners have in this game? What purpose do Sinners serve if they don’t have night powers? There is some way, some, well thought out plan that Hopefully ties everything to everything else. I would like to think that his game is well contained, and is checked and balanced by all other parts of the game. As it is right now, Im getting a LOT of untied ends here. **The game is NOT FUN this way.** * * * I remain amazed that everyone else is perfectly fine with their solution to the game. But, if someone tries to help people understand other how to play, apparently it is a scum tell, somehow. \*\*We need to know what Ostracize means. We need a fixed, and agreed upon set of terms to what we are talking about. If these two things are scum tells, then so be it.\*\* I am trying, as best I can, to understand the new bits and pieces of information we get. The infromation flow is scarce, made worse by the forced enigma of the current game state. If you would rather me lurk, fine. However, I thought you guys would appreciate more ideas, and would like to know what Meeko was thinking. You are damned if you do in this game, and damned if you dont. I am trying to make heads or tails of this game. We will get no where if we each vote for the player on our left. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/552 "2009-05-05T21:39:56Z")
> [@paulwhoisaghost](#): > > Two things… > > #1 My vote has been bought… > > #2 Ed you are really boring this game 😛 Those things are unrelated. Sorry, paul. I’m playing in at least 4 games and alive in at least 3 ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/553 "2009-05-05T21:41:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > A non-Sinner who has been infected, and who intends to remain non-Sinner, should speak up. If nobody does so, then we can conclude that the number of Sinners (or at least, people with the Sinner win condition) has probably increased. If somebody does speak up, then we know to keep an eye on that person, and also know that nobody _else_ was recruited that Night. If a Scum false-claims to have been infected when someone else really was, then the person who really was infected can counterclaim, and we know that one of them is lying (a huge benefit to the town, since wost case scenario, we lynch both). If a Scum false-claims to be infected and nobody else actually was (for whatever reason), then the end result is that keep an extra close eye on someone who really is Scum. I’m not seeing a downside to Town for infected players claiming. Unless the Sinner’s failed in laying their seed. They could have tried to get a Blackheart or they could have tried to get Telcontar or someone who had some sort of sin protection. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/554 "2009-05-05T21:47:18Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > It is obvious I have no clue what I am talking about. I am past trying to figure it out. > > The fact remains that none of us know what we are talking about. > > \*\*WHAT DOES OSTRACIZE MEAN IN THIS GAME? \*\* > \*\* > This game is broken until this is answered. > \*\* > The problem that I can not put to bed, despite trying to help other people figure it out is this: > > Execution leaves one player converting to Sin, if not checked. > > Night Kills are apparently given with Blackheart Propaganda. > > What power do Sinners have in this game? What purpose do Sinners serve if they don’t have night powers? > > There is some way, some, well thought out plan that Hopefully ties everything to everything else. > > I would like to think that his game is well contained, and is checked and balanced by all other parts of the game. > > As it is right now, Im getting a LOT of untied ends here. > > **The game is NOT FUN this way.** > > * * * > > I remain amazed that everyone else is perfectly fine with their solution to the game. But, if someone tries to help people understand other how to play, apparently it is a scum tell, somehow. > > \*\*We need to know what Ostracize means. > > We need a fixed, and agreed upon set of terms to what we are talking about. > > If these two things are scum tells, then so be it.\*\* > > I am trying, as best I can, to understand the new bits and pieces of information we get. The infromation flow is scarce, made worse by the forced enigma of the current game state. > > If you would rather me lurk, fine. > > However, I thought you guys would appreciate more ideas, and would like to know what Meeko was thinking. > > You are damned if you do in this game, and damned if you dont. > > I am trying to make heads or tails of this game. > > We will get no where if we each vote for the player on our left. \*\*Town \*\*are trying to kill everyone who is against them. Their primary tool is the lynch, though they may be aided by a Vigilante or Serial Killer. Additionally, Blackhearts may help out by NK’ing Sinners. \*\*Blackhearts \*\*are trying to kill everyone else. They have 2 methods for this [ol] [li]The lynch by trying to make sure that the lynched player is not their own[/li][li]Their Night Kill.[/li][/ol] The \*\*Sinners \*\*are trying to make sure everyone is infected with the seed of sin. They have 3 methods to achieve this [ol] [li]Infecting someone with the seed of sin at Night[/li][li]Infecting the last person to vote for an execute at Night[/li][li]Trying to guide the lynch away from themselves and anyone who is infected.[/li][/ol]There are also 2 things which compound the Sinner’s quest. [ol] [li]Town can reverse the effect of the seed of sin through prayer[/li][li]I would think Blackhearts cannot be seeded, so they must be killed via lynch, Vig, SK or other method.[/li][/ol] They are working against each other for very different purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/555 "2009-05-05T21:48:41Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > It is obvious I have no clue what I am talking about. I am past trying to figure it out. > > The fact remains that none of us know what we are talking about. > > \*\*WHAT DOES OSTRACIZE MEAN IN THIS GAME? \*\* > \*\* > This game is broken until this is answered. > \*\* Ostracization is a method of lynching. It eliminates players from the game in a way that is morally pure. However, there are some roles that have unusual interactions when being ostracized that they wouldn’t have if they were executed. Hope that helps. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/556 "2009-05-05T21:49:37Z")
Ok. apparently I missed some memo. Let me catch up on the quick here: \*\* Did someone become ensinned last night?\*\* \*\* Do we lose 3 people in a game day? Does each faction get to act on at LEAST one player a day?\*\* Silly me, thinking that this knowlege would have been told at about the same time we learned that we lost Telcontar. I mean, heh, getting information in a timely manner, I don’t know what came over me. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/557 "2009-05-05T21:52:04Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > They are working against each other for very different purposes. The level of abstraction going on here, rivals that with my JAVA programing class\*. - Which lost me shortly after the second semester. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/558 "2009-05-05T21:52:35Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Ok. apparently I missed some memo. > > Let me catch up on the quick here: > \*\* > Did someone become ensinned last night?\*\* > \*\* > Do we lose 3 people in a game day? Does each faction get to act on at LEAST one player a day?\*\* > > Silly me, thinking that this knowlege would have been told at about the same time we learned that we lost Telcontar. I mean, heh, getting information in a timely manner, I don’t know what came over me. 1. F4 2a. F4. But I will tell you this: two people died the first Day/Night cycle. 2b. Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/559 "2009-05-05T21:57:00Z")
NETA : \*\*Why would town ever Execute then? \*\* 😕 ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/560 "2009-05-05T21:59:01Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > NETA : > > \*\*Why would town ever Execute then? \*\* 😕 becuase of the unexplained weakness in Ostracization. Pede has stated: > [@pede](#): > > Also, on lynching. There are two ways to lynch: Ostricization and Execution. If the town ostracizes a player, there’s a chance that that person might ignore the order and do something that night, but it is the morally appropriate way of clensing the town. Execution ensures that the target won’t come back, but as killing is always sinful, the last player to vote for the execution is infected with the seed of sin. There is ambiguity in what happens when a player ignores the Town order. We don’t know what is done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271.md?page=29)