# The Crimson Glyph (Werewolf/Mafia/Psychopath) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 24, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271 "2009-04-24T22:16:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![paulwhoisaghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@paulwhoisaghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulwhoisaghost)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/761 "2009-05-06T23:53:08Z")
**Does the Sinner’s wincon preempt the town’s?** ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/762 "2009-05-06T23:54:15Z")
1. Blackhearts (uninfected with the Seed of Sin) 2. Sinners 3. Pure Townies, not currently infected with the seed of sin 4. Not yet back to Pure Townies, Town players who have been infected with the seed of Sin, but have refused to accept the win condition. They have not finished the process of removing the seed of sin. (e.g., they haven’t finished praying or had the seed removed via another power) 5. Impure Town who have accepted the Sinner’s win condition. They are still Town. They are not pure. They win with the Sinners. 6. Re-Pure Town. These are category 5 Town who have had the seed of sin removed from them by another power. They still win with Sinners, but do not count toward the Sinners win condition. (i.e, they can only win if reinfected or dead) 7. Infected Blackhearts. Their win condition does not change. Blackhearts (1 and 7 combined) win when they outnumber 2,3,4,5, and 6 combined Sinners win when they Eliminate 1, 3, and 6. (either through death of infection) Townies (3 and 4) win when they have eliminated 1, 2, 5, and 7 (either through death or re-purification for category 5 Town)) Townies in the 5 and 6 category, win when Sinners win ---
**Author:** ![paulwhoisaghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e5b9ba/32.png) [@paulwhoisaghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulwhoisaghost)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/763 "2009-05-07T00:01:30Z")
:smack: I have been operating under bad info… The town wins when every player alive is Pure. The Blackhearts win when they control the vote. The Sinners win when every player has the Seed of Sin within them. The Sinners and town cannot win together. I cannot win for town by killing everyone else. That sucks… ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/764 "2009-05-07T00:23:36Z")
I walk away for a few hours and everything goes berserk? Yeesh! I’ve read and re-read everything since around 5 pm, when I left and I am understanding the following. Please tell me where I’m wrong. 1. Ped revealed his alleged role PM, which should reveal why he was doing a PM to Ped last Night(when he commented on the full inbox). 2. If he’s telling the truth, he’s basically a Watcher/Killer, where he had to choose one of those actions. He could watch someone at the Night and Kill someone in the Day. He could also swap people’s targets or something. 3. It does not sound like he had to choose one or the other role per Day/Night? 4. Two of his powers infect with the Seed of Sin…which is rather weird. 5. He had a minor flip-out over everyone’s misunderstanding…which was fun to read. It seems weird that he could sinfect someone with two of his powers(killing and swapping). I almost have a hard time believing this part of his role…but I do for some reason. I’m not ready to vote for him, because I kind of half believe his claim and don’t want to kill another townie. I mean, he’s dangerous in some way, but not as bad as some people are making him out to be. Anyone who voted for him want to explain to me(and the other townies) the advantage of taking out paul? Is it the sinfection possibilities? Is it that you don’t believe the claim itself? Is it that he can kill during the Day? Is it that you don’t like him personally? ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/765 "2009-05-07T00:26:04Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I walk away for a few hours and everything goes berserk? Yeesh! > > I’ve read and re-read everything since around 5 pm, when I left and I am understanding the following. Please tell me where I’m wrong. psst, it’s paul, not pede ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/766 "2009-05-07T00:43:41Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Anyone who voted for him want to explain to me(and the other townies) the advantage of taking out paul? Is it the sinfection possibilities? Is it that you don’t believe the claim itself? Is it that he can kill during the Day? Is it that you don’t like him personally? The long and the short of it, is that he came off scummy. His attitude since then hasn’t helped his case. Frankly, I wonder how he can make up a cut and pasted PM that so fits in with same syntax as everyone else’s. If he did edit the PM that ped gave him, it was probably on his alignment, or some other minor, three words or less change. I don’t think it would pass a smell test if he changed any more than that. \*\* Is it bad to lose a player who is admitedly disenfranchised with townies, any way you look at it ?\*\* Assume that the PM paul pasted is 100% accurate. Is it any worse to lose him, than a 50/50 shot OR WORSE at someone else? If not Paul, dont we run a risk of lynching someone with Better powers? Is their a Priest in the game still, with better powers than Paul’s ? If we don’t lynch, wont the Blackhearts get him anyway? Give them the 50/50 chance. We Vote on Paul, and we don’t do anything else until the day is over. If you think I am scum telling here, listen to that, AFTER you listen to the logic. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/767 "2009-05-07T00:47:25Z")
People are not getting it. When a townie is infected with the Seed of sin, 2 things happen: –That player has the option to change his win condition to that of the sinners –That player’s state changes from ‘Pure Town’ to ‘Impure Town’ regardless of which decision he made in 1. An infected townie can pray each night. One night of completed prayer does nothing. Two nights of completed prayer, consecutive or non, does the following: –It changes their status back to ‘Pure Town’. Whenever a townie is purified, through whatever means, if he had previously change his win condition, he can change it back to the Town one or keep it at the sinner one. If a Sinner is purified against his will for some reason, his win condition cannot change. If a Blackheart is infected with the seed of sin or purified, his win condition cannot change. Is that clear? > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > **Are we now performing vanilla lynches? Or Ostracizing people?** Ostraciziations are regular lynches. So yes. > [@paulwhoisaghost](#): > > \*\*Pede… if EVERYONE voted me, would the day end early? Or is suicide possible? At this point it is better that I just die so that these blockheads can move on and hopefully not be so closed minded toward the next person they force to role claim. \*\* No and no. Vote count! Paulwhoisaghost (5): Chronos, Inner Stickler, Rysto, Freudian Slit, Meeko ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/768 "2009-05-07T00:50:47Z")
One last question, ped(I swear!). **Pure townies, even if they have the Sinner win condition(but subsequently prayed for two consecutive nights), do not count towards the Sinner win condition?** ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/769 "2009-05-07T00:56:03Z")
\*\*So, If you START praying on the next to last night of the game, you never become Pure again, do you? \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/770 "2009-05-07T00:58:37Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > One last question, ped(I swear!). **Pure townies, even if they have the Sinner win condition(but subsequently prayed for two consecutive nights), do not count towards the Sinner win condition?** Correct, they do not. > [@Meeko](#): > > \*\*So, If you START praying on the next to last night of the game, you never become Pure again, do you? \*\* Correct, they would not. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/771 "2009-05-07T01:05:07Z")
Quoth **special ed** : > [@](#): > > Why would you be suspicious that he wasn’t NK’d? > > I’m not following your case here. It seems that you are voting for paul because he soft claimed and shared some information. During the Night, **paul** made public the information that he was PMing **pede** , which implies that he has a power role. Everyone, including the Scum, saw that. The Scum, despite knowing that **paul** probably had a power role, chose to target somebody other than **paul**. The only explanations I can think of for that are that, a, Scum had some better source of information pointing to **Telcontar** (which seems unlikely this early in the game), b, the Scum thought that **paul** was bluffing (it’d be a pretty elaborate bluff, since he wouldn’t have known before PMing that **pede** ’s inbox was full), or c, **paul** is Scum. This wasn’t enough to get a vote from me yet, since there were still those first two possibilities, but like I said, it made me suspicious. Then, though, he started his talk about having special information about Sin. In so doing, he gave the Scum valuable information, since he revealed that he had a power role, but he did not give Town any valuable information, since we can’t trust any information that we don’t know the source of, and he wasn’t telling us the source. I can see no Town motivation for making a half-claim like that. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/772 "2009-05-07T01:14:05Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > If we don’t lynch, wont the Blackhearts get him anyway? > > Give them the 50/50 chance. > > We Vote on Paul, and we don’t do anything else until the day is over. > > If you think I am scum telling here, listen to that, AFTER you listen to the logic. \*\*NETA : Simply, we more or less stop play for the day after we agree to all vote Paul, if indeed we are doing that. In this way, we do not give Sinners or Blackhearts any more information, AND we block their obvious move Tonight.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/773 "2009-05-07T01:17:13Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > The long and the short of it, is that he came off scummy. His attitude since then hasn’t helped his case. > > Frankly, I wonder how he can make up a cut and pasted PM that so fits in with same syntax as everyone else’s. If he did edit the PM that ped gave him, it was probably on his alignment, or some other minor, three words or less change. I don’t think it would pass a smell test if he changed any more than that. Absolutely wrong. Paul is fully capable of faking a claim. Trust me on that. He’s learned his lessons well. > [@Meeko](#): > > Is it any worse to lose him, than a 50/50 shot OR WORSE at someone else? > > If not Paul, dont we run a risk of lynching someone with Better powers? > > Is their a Priest in the game still, with better powers than Paul’s ? This isn’t the first time you’ve fished for other power roles. Stop it. Let the power roles themselves decide when to claim. > [@Meeko](#): > > If we don’t lynch, wont the Blackhearts get him anyway? So why waste our lynch on him if they’re going to kill him anyway? Of course, knowing we feel that way, they might not kill him > [@Meeko](#): > > Give them the 50/50 chance. Give who a 50/50 chance of what? > [@Meeko](#): > > We Vote on Paul, and we don’t do anything else until the day is over. Is this your suggestion? an order? a request? a prediction? > [@Meeko](#): > > If you think I am scum telling here, listen to that, AFTER you listen to the logic. I have no idea what you mean here. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/774 "2009-05-07T01:18:15Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > \*\*NETA : > > Simply, we more or less stop play for the day after we agree to all vote Paul, if indeed we are doing that. > > In this way, we do not give Sinners or Blackhearts any more information, AND we block their obvious move Tonight.\*\* aren’t trying to avoid giving the Blackhearts or sinners information. We are trying to get them to give us information. They already know who they are. We don’t. They have the information. We don’t. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/775 "2009-05-07T01:19:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **special ed** :During the Night, **paul** made public the information that he was PMing **pede** , which implies that he has a power role. Everyone, including the Scum, saw that. The Scum, despite knowing that **paul** probably had a power role, chose to target somebody other than **paul**. The only explanations I can think of for that are that, a, Scum had some better source of information pointing to **Telcontar** (which seems unlikely this early in the game), b, the Scum thought that **paul** was bluffing (it’d be a pretty elaborate bluff, since he wouldn’t have known before PMing that **pede** ’s inbox was full), or c, **paul** is Scum. This wasn’t enough to get a vote from me yet, since there were still those first two possibilities, but like I said, it made me suspicious. > > Then, though, he started his talk about having special information about Sin. In so doing, he gave the Scum valuable information, since he revealed that he had a power role, but he did not give Town any valuable information, since we can’t trust any information that we don’t know the source of, and he wasn’t telling us the source. I can see no Town motivation for making a half-claim like that. The Town motivation could be that he wanted us to have that information while making the Scum WiFoM about his power. Especially since his power has to do with Sinners, the Blackhearts, who are the ones who NK, might be less interested in a Town player who has power against the Sinners. ---
**Author:** ![AllWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/db5fbb/32.png) [@AllWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AllWalker)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/776 "2009-05-07T01:25:27Z")
I’m thinking that paul is actually town, but has just gone about things in a strange way. The information that paul provided, if true, is useful, but that is the problem - we don’t know that it is true, and trying to guide us with subtle hints is really foolish. Knowing details about the Scum the rest of the town doesn’t know isn’t necessarily Scum behaviour, but it doesn’t look good either. Either keep the info to yourself or do a full roleclaim, but doing thins half-heartedly then complaining about being “forced” into roleclaim is dumb. But not necessarily scummy. But on a related note, does anyone else think post #641 is strange? > [@Meeko](#): > > In other news, that I am trying to relate, but can’t, I now officially move off the assumption that we lost Telcontar to “luck”. So Meeko, you know that the Blackhearts know more than they should… how, exactly? Any clues? ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/777 "2009-05-07T01:26:41Z")
**ARE YOU REALLY THAT THICK?** > [@special\_ed](#): > > This isn’t the first time you’ve fished for other power roles. Stop it. Let the power roles themselves decide when to claim. > \*\* > I am not fishing. I look at the crap roles that Paul claims to have, and I am betting that there are better ones out there.\*\* > > So why waste our lynch on him if they’re going to kill him anyway? Of course, knowing we feel that way, they might not kill him > > **Because, in this way, we do not kill someone that helps town more.** > > Give who a 50/50 chance of what? > \*\* > See above. > \*\* > Is this your suggestion? an order? a request? a prediction? > > I have no idea what you mean here. \*\*It is this simple: We lynch Paul. We do not waste a lynch on anyone else. This makes NKs harder, given that we have wasted most of today talkin about Paul. We have not talked about anyone else hardly. Therefore it is a crap shot for Blackhearts. It is an obvious choice for Blackhearts to Lynch Paul. If we remove that option, we get rid of a player that creates Sin, AND we make Blackhearts work more for their kill. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/778 "2009-05-07T01:30:15Z")
OK, here’s what I got from pede now: 1. ‘Pure’ Blackhearts, (How they start or after being purified) 2. Impure Blackhearts, when they get infected 3. ‘Impure’ Sinners (how they start) 4. ‘Pure’ Sinners (after being purified) 5. 'Pure Townies (How they start or after being purified) 6. ‘Impure’ Townies with the Town win condition (probably attempting to purify through prayer) 7. 'Pure Townies (who have been purified but kept the sinner win condition) 8. ‘Impure’ Townies who have chosen the Sinners win condition. The town wins when every player alive is Pure. \*5 and 6 win when 1, 2, 3, and 4 are dead and all 6 and 8 are dead or re-purified. (Type 7 players may be alive, but they lose) \* The Blackhearts win when they control the vote. _When 1 and 2 combined outnumber all other players combined._ The Sinners win when every player has the Seed of Sin within them. \*3 and 4 win when all 1 and 2 are dead and all 4, 5 and 7 are (re)infected or dead \* I wish this message board allowed tables. This actually makes more sense in a simple table depicting Initial alignment (T or S or B) and current infection status (Impure or Pure) ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/779 "2009-05-07T01:32:03Z")
> [@AllWalker](#): > > But on a related note, does anyone else think post #641 is strange? > > So Meeko, you know that the Blackhearts know more than they should… how, exactly? Any clues? When Tel. was still alive, O was still around. This is a key part to why I thought what I did, when I did. I still believe that the drawback to O was that Blackhearts learned information that helped increased the odds of a Blackhear NK on a Town Power Role. That is all I mean. We **STILL** do not know the drawback to O. It makes sense to me, to at least consider the drawback of O in the same breath as considering “luck” per the Telcontar NK. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/780 "2009-05-07T01:33:00Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > **ARE YOU REALLY THAT THICK?** > > \*\*It is this simple: > > We lynch Paul. We do not waste a lynch on anyone else. > > This makes NKs harder, given that we have wasted most of today talkin about Paul. We have not talked about anyone else hardly. Therefore it is a crap shot for Blackhearts. > > It is an obvious choice for Blackhearts to Lynch Paul. If we remove that option, we get rid of a player that creates Sin, AND we make Blackhearts work more for their kill. > \*\* I’m not terribly thick, no, but thanks for asking. So, why are we doing the Blackhearts work for them? We can’t worry about the NK. It’s going to happen anyway. We need to make our lynch effectively and make it in Town’s best interest. On what planet does it make sense to lynch a player that the Scum will want dead? You want to make the choice harder for the Blackhearts by taking away their obvious choice? Why not make them waste their lynch on Paul? I don’t get it. They aren’t going to accidentally kill one of their own. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271.md?page=40)