# The Crimson Glyph (Werewolf/Mafia/Psychopath) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 24, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271 "2009-04-24T22:16:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 67
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1321 "2009-05-15T03:40:03Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > That, I guess, sort of makes sense. But, if you are town, with sinner wincon, you are effectively a sinner, right? I mean, even if you are town by name, if you win with the sinners you are going to try to get rid of town and blackhearts, right? Not get rid of them necessarily, but make sure the ones who are not Sinfected are killed, and the ones who live are Sinfected. Does that make sense? If there is 1 Sinner alive, and 3 Town and 2 Blackhearts, but everyone is Sinfected, then the Sinners win. Even if all of the Sinners are dead, if everyone is Sinfected, they win. And any Town that took their wincon also win. Of course, that might appear to be easier said than done. The Town do not become Sinners. They just become Sinfected Town, much the same as Blackhearts become Sinfected Blackhearts. Though Blackhearts cannot change their win condition. The big difference is that Town can choose their win condition. They can even be Sinfected but still choose to try to work toward a Town victory. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1322 "2009-05-15T03:59:23Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > [ol] > [li]Town needs to figure out who the anti-Town elements are[/li][li]Town does NOT need to figure out who the power roles are[/li][li]Town does NOT need to even know if any power roles exist[/li][li]Town players do not need to convince anyone they are Town[/li][li]Town players do NOT need to play defensively (i.e., playing to not get lynched)[/li][li]Town players do not need to survive[/li][li]Town players do not need to be right[/li][li]Town players do not need to ‘figure out’ the game or ‘know everything’[/li][li]Information is NOT what we are after, Scum is what we are after[/li][/ol] I was going to look at why I hate this game. Looks like I don’t have to look further than this. \*\*If I can’t know any of the above information, tell me why I am still playing. \*\* \*\*You know, I thought this game was, the TOWN works against scum. Not exclusive people who have certain powers, who ACTIVELY WORK TO KEEP OTHER TOWNIES IN THE DARK\*\* Very seriously, What else can I contribute to this game then? This is **MOST CERTAINLY** not the intention of the game. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1323 "2009-05-15T04:08:46Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > I was going to look at why I hate this game. > > Looks like I don’t have to look further than this. > > \*\*If I can’t know any of the above information, tell me why I am still playing. \*\* > \*\*You know, I thought this game was, the TOWN works against scum. > > Not exclusive people who have certain powers, who ACTIVELY WORK TO KEEP OTHER TOWNIES IN THE DARK\*\* > > Very seriously, What else can I contribute to this game then? This is **MOST CERTAINLY** not the intention of the game. See point 1? THAT is the point of the game. See, the problem with Town sharing all their information with each other is this: Some people are not Town. They will lie. They will use this information against us. For example: You were protected last Night. You’re probably curious who did that. Should they tell you? No. Why not? If they did, the Scum would know, and the Scum would try to kill them so they can never do that again. Additionally, a Scum could lie and say they protected you, then you’d be more likely to trust them, no? So, in the end, we aren’t trying to solve everything. We’re just trying to find the Scum, and we’re hoping the power roles contribute in some way to that victory, and if they do, then job well done, and tell me about it after the game. So, you are playing to find and kill the anti-Town players. That’s where the whole win condition comes in. It doesn’t say we win when we know everything. It doesn’t say we win when we’re right. It doesn’t even say we win if we live to the end. It says we win when “The town wins when every player alive is Pure.” So, I think that means we have to kill all Sinners and blackhearts and kill or dis-sinfect all Impure Townies. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1324 "2009-05-15T04:22:02Z")
Quoth **special ed** : > [@](#): > > Though Blackhearts cannot change their win condition. Are we certain that Blackhearts can’t accept the Sinner win condition if they’re Sinfected? And **Meeko** , you now have me very confused. Back at Night 1/Day 2, you were saying that we should minimize discussion, lest we give away information to the Scum. Now, you’re saying that we should have all information, including who has what power role, out in the open. You’ve got it exactly backwards: The one piece of information Scum could use but which they don’t have yet is who the power roles are, so that information should (generally) be kept private (some roles are only useful if they claim, like Detectives, but that can generally wait for a few days). On the other hand, every other useful piece of information in the game, the Scum already know, so there’s no benefit to them to getting information out there, and considerable benefit to Town. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1325 "2009-05-15T04:32:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **special ed** :Are we certain that Blackhearts can’t accept the Sinner win condition if they’re Sinfected? > > And **Meeko** , you now have me very confused. Back at Night 1/Day 2, you were saying that we should minimize discussion, lest we give away information to the Scum. That was after Paul more or less sealed his fate, correct? I figured we tipped our hand WAY too much with that, as it was. No need to say more ON THAT DAY. But, now, we have nothing. We keep re-hashing hypotheticals, that wont come true. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1326 "2009-05-15T04:33:59Z")
So. Angel did indeed lie\*. Correct? What do we think about that going forward? \*And if she didn’t lie THEN, then saying she did now would prove that she has. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1327 "2009-05-15T05:04:30Z")
> [@](#): > > I figured we tipped our hand WAY too much with that, as it was. “We” didn’t tip our hand too far-- Most of us don’t even have a hand to tip. **paul** specifically tipped his hand, and now you’re asking other power roles to do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1328 "2009-05-15T05:19:19Z")
Another question…why did Angel tell us that she lied about praying. From what I can tell, we never would have known. ---
**Author:** ![AllWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/db5fbb/32.png) [@AllWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AllWalker)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1329 "2009-05-15T05:45:16Z")
> [@AngeloftheNorth](#): > > Ped said that in already here. > > **Vote AllWalker** Bleached Where, exactly? Point it out, and I’d consider dropping the vote. And really, with all the players around, and all those lurking, and all these discussions, if such a simple OMGUS vote is the best you can come up with, maybe I shouldn’t drop it. ---
**Author:** ![AllWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/db5fbb/32.png) [@AllWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AllWalker)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1330 "2009-05-15T05:51:04Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Another question…why did Angel tell us that she lied about praying. From what I can tell, we never would have known. Not only that, but Angel told us she (?) was sinfected. Why? Then, as you point out, Angel admitted to lying. Why? Frankly, I don’t see much scum motivation for this, and even less town motivation. Withholding information can be pro-town - actively lying rarely is. To add to my above question - Angel, what was your motivation for the lies? What was your motivation for the confession? ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1331 "2009-05-15T11:34:04Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > So. Angel did indeed lie\*. Correct? > > What do we think about that going forward? > > \*And if she didn’t lie THEN, then saying she did now would prove that she has. _blink_ ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1332 "2009-05-15T11:38:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **special ed** :Are we certain that Blackhearts can’t accept the Sinner win condition if they’re Sinfected? From [post 767](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11114969&postcount=767) > [@pedescribe](#): > > When a townie is infected with the Seed of sin, 2 things happen: > –That player has the option to change his win condition to that of the sinners > –That player’s state changes from ‘Pure Town’ to ‘Impure Town’ regardless of which decision he made in 1. > > An infected townie can pray each night. One night of completed prayer does nothing. Two nights of completed prayer, consecutive or non, does the following: > –It changes their status back to ‘Pure Town’. > > Whenever a townie is purified, through whatever means, if he had previously change his win condition, he can change it back to the Town one or keep it at the sinner one. > > If a Sinner is purified against his will for some reason, his win condition cannot change. > > If a Blackheart is infected with the seed of sin or purified, his win condition cannot change. > > Is that clear? ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1333 "2009-05-15T12:13:38Z")
special ed, thanks for the quotation of that pedescribe post. I had forgotten that he told us that Blackhearts can not change their win condition. However, did we ever get specific indication as to whether the Blackhearts started the game sinfected or not? Were we told about their sin status or at least told that we don’t know their sin status? ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1334 "2009-05-15T13:34:35Z")
So Angel lied. I really don’t understand why you would admit to doing so now. An attempt to build trust? Weird way to go about it. Would you have switched back if we hadn’t lynched Captain yesterday? I don’t think you would have. I think you switched back because you saw that he was dead and were worried about the new win con. I’m not 100% convinced you did switch back. It doesn’t necessarily matter though. You have proven that you are willing to change sides, which is by definition an anti-town, pro-scum move. That combined with good old fashioned lynch all liars, leads me to vote. **Vote Angel** ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1335 "2009-05-15T14:29:05Z")
> [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > So Angel lied. I really don’t understand why you would admit to doing so now. An attempt to build trust? Weird way to go about it. > > That combined with good old fashioned lynch all liars, leads me to vote. I have no clue about Peekers at this point. Chronos consistently pings me, but I can’t ignore a lie, period. **Unvote Chronos.** **Vote Angel** And, if no one backed a bandwagon, no one would ever get voted out in this game. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1336 "2009-05-15T15:06:50Z")
By the way, I would have switched my vote to Angel awhile ago if I could, but I am not allowed to vote until I am told to. If someone wants to review “vote intentions”, though, I believe Angel should go. I don’t know when I’ll find out who I have to vote for. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![AngeloftheNorth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelofthenorth/32/19559_2.png) [@AngeloftheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngeloftheNorth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1337 "2009-05-15T15:10:28Z")
> [@AllWalker](#): > > Not only that, but Angel told us she (?) was sinfected. Why? > > Then, as you point out, Angel admitted to lying. Why? > > Frankly, I don’t see much scum motivation for this, and even less town motivation. Withholding information can be pro-town - actively lying rarely is. > > To add to my above question - Angel, what was your motivation for the lies? What was your motivation for the confession? The rumor stimulation is I wants to join the criminal to obtain more knowledge, but, when I choose accept the sin I compared before have not obtained other knowledge. (knew that I these you, did know any matter drives me to be crazy. I make a bet this sentence to be funny the result use Chinese.) Because I did not know that whose I the criminal will be (obviously or I will not vote cap), I will possibly do should better be try to present the town and to maintain oneself live. After I have been washed I discovered that I have a choice. I choose return to the town, because I am convinced Captain Pinkie am the only criminal start with, and I knew the new criminal can not need improve strength. ---
**Author:** ![AngeloftheNorth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelofthenorth/32/19559_2.png) [@AngeloftheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngeloftheNorth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1338 "2009-05-15T15:16:05Z")
My honest stimulation is for the town knowledge. I was the only person live the competition which knew to have anything, when you accepted the sin. At least, acknowledges it publicly the only person. If you slander me, and I present the town, I, you will know the truth about two matters: 1. Accepts sin do not These people; If has one, joins the criminal to thread. 2. Accepts sin’s these people to obtain the choice to return to town’ s victory situation, if they force to wash. 3. Accepts sin’s these people to be impossible to pass the sin seed to other. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1339 "2009-05-15T15:51:14Z")
**Pedescribe, may we have a vote total? Thanks!** ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271/1340 "2009-05-15T16:14:44Z")
I understand what you’re saying(freaky I know. Too many games with Peeker, I think I’ve learned how to translate seemingly impossible to understand things), but from Town’s persepective, how do we know to trust you? Maybe Paul cleaned you and maybe Paul didn’t. We can’t know since Paul isn’t here to ask anymore. Maybe you really did return to the Town win condition afterwards. The thing is, we can’t know that. What we know is that you have admitted to being a liar. This calls everything else you say in this game into question. Even your post restiction is suspect. People faking post restrictions is not new. There was a player in Batman that stayed alive for a long time by faking a B becomes G post restriction when she was scum. Right now, the only thing we know for certain is that you claimed to be Sinfected, claimed to have prayed, claimed that Paul cleansed you and left you a post restriction, and then later claimed to have lied about praying while also claiming that you switched back when Paul cleansed you. You can see where this is an issue for us I hope. “I lied to you before, but no, really, I’m telling the truth this time!” I would even say it’s not out of the question for you to be a Blackheart that decided to try and run a gambit for Town cred. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271.md?page=66) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-crimson-glyph-werewolf-mafia-psychopath/494271.md?page=68)