# The Cult of Scientology: Always Attack, Never Defend **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 22, 2006, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579 "2006-07-22T05:22:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/261 "2006-08-02T18:07:03Z")
[QUOTE=An Arky] I’m not here to attack or defend any specific allegation, but it seems to me there’s _got_ to be more independent confirmation of the allegations made on the Anti-CoS site for it to really pass muster. Again, I’m convinced that Scientology is a buncha hooey and likely has nefarious elements, so it’s not like you need to convince _me_, but generally here on the Dope, biased sources don’t count for much. Don’t get me wrong, there are a couple of cites in this thread that are unbiased and actually have good (bad?) info on the CoS. but still, nothing unbiased to really tie the case against the CoS together. So, where do we go from here? What _is_ the Straight Dope? [/QUOTE] Well, that’s why I put that Rolling Stone article in when I found it. Rolling Stone generally has good investigative reporting, and a professional point of view. Now, the items in the article, you can investigate further for yourself, but they all seem to be fairly accurate, based on other sources I’ve found. Wikipedia attempts to have a Neutral Point of View on things. They have articles on Scientology, and on various issues the cult has had, and I referenced them as well. Scientology’s traditional ‘Fair Game’ tactic tends to polarize people into becoming active opponents, though, so it’s hard. For example, you wouldn’t think Time Magazine would be horribly biased against Scientology. > **[Scientology: The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power](http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Fishman/time-behar.html)** (Note, this is a transcript of the article. The full article can be found at [TIME | Current & Breaking News | National & World Updates](http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,972865,00.html?internalid=ACA) but there is a fee.) But they subtitle it “Ruined lives. Lost fortunes. Federal crimes. Scientology poses as a religion but really is a ruthless global scam – and aiming for the mainstream” So, well… Time, Rolling Stone, both show up with articles that are a bit brutal in nature. I’ve yet to see an independent source of sufficient credibility be in favor. Oh, and look for the story of the lawsuit over the article. It’s a fun one. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/262 "2006-08-02T18:55:46Z")
Things worth noticing in the Time article: The part about the lawsuits the CoS files, and the continual effort against Eli Lilly, a pharm company that makes Prozac. > **[Scientology and law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_the_legal_system)** > > Scientology has an extensive and complex history with the law in many countries, involving criminal prosecutions, civil litigation, regulatory actions, and cases concerning religious recognition. Scientology spokespeople state that its litigation is intended to protect its religious freedom and intellectual property, while critics and some courts have described its use of the legal system as abusive and overly aggressive. The Church of Scientology and its related organizations has been involved ... This link claims > [@wikipedia](#): > > In May of 1991, Time Magazine published a cover story on Scientology.[13] The Church responded by suing Time for $400 million, and a five-year legal battle ensued in which Time spent approximately $7 million defending itself in court. The case was eventually dismissed in the magazine’s favor. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/263 "2006-08-03T12:39:11Z")
Yup; the Time and Rolling Stone articles have some pretty convincing info. I think they can be trusted sources, not entirely undebateable, but trusted. Thanks. Wikipedia has good info, but some of the phrasing could be perceived as biased, as is pointed out in the Discussion forum, though maybe the “bias” is being pointed out in the discussion by clams or whatever. ::shrugs:: Anyway, I think that it’s perfectly clear (hehe, I said “clear”) that Scientology has some pretty alarming aspects to it. Of course, as with most any religion or pseudo-religion, you have a hard time convincing it’s adherents that it’s a bunch of horseshit. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/264 "2006-08-03T12:48:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Yup; the Time and Rolling Stone articles have some pretty convincing info. I think they can be trusted sources, not entirely undebateable, but trusted. Thanks. I just wanna point out that the Time magazine article is linked through the [xenu.com](http://xenu.com) site I pointed out above. There’s even an icon of the cover as a link. I’m not sure about the Rolling Stone article. As I said, he gathered together all the critical info he could find in one site – it;s not a rant site. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/265 "2006-08-03T12:48:56Z")
I think there’s one point I want to reiterate here, An Arky. All religions have issues, from the outside. “We can’t eat cheeseburgers? Why?” “So… this one guy came back from the dead. But you can’t repeat it.” “The lost tribes of Israel are actually the Native Americans. Odd, DNA testing doesn’t show that.” Still, they’re matters of faith. Doctrinal points, if you would. And really, they don’t affect people outside the religion much. “You have to leave early thursday to get home before sunset? Okay.” “So, you need a five minute break twice a day to pray. Well, that’s less than the smokers take off.” Scientology has structural, organizational issues. A ‘Spanish Inquisition’, if you will, active and functional as part of the backbone of the church. That’s the part I consider evil. I’ve got no problem with anything anyone wants to believe, as long as they don’t try to inflict it on me and others. (Prostelyzation is fine, as long as it’s honest and not deceptive.) But when an organization does things like the aforequoted… that’s just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/266 "2006-08-03T12:51:27Z")
CalMecham is correct, but you’ll notice I also provided a link to Time’s website, which shows the first few paragraphs… the rest are available for a fee. If you don’t trust [xenu.com](http://xenu.com), and I can imagine why you might not, you can fork over the dosh and look at the original. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/267 "2006-08-03T13:11:23Z")
I don’t personally have any issue with [xenu.net](http://xenu.net) being a source of info; I can generally tell the difference between reputable sources and iffy ones. I was just saying that _some_ folks who require a more rigorous avoidance of bias might discount the source due to that perceived bias. Or maybe they’re clams… :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![UKCatGirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a88e57/32.png) [@UKCatGirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UKCatGirl)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/268 "2006-08-03T18:51:26Z")
Sorry if this is slightly OT, but I came upon this thread late, and it took awhile to get through it. I go to school at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, which is really not that far of a drive from Clearwater. LAst semster I noticed a booth on campus, and from a distance all I could see was a “FREE STRESS TEST HERE!” sign. I thought to myself “Well, that surely couldn’t be Scientologists, could it? Would the university actually let a cult set up shop on it’s lawn?” Well, sure enough I got closer and there were the yellow shirts and stacks of “Dianetics.” I was extremely pissed to see this taking place, and voiced my dislike to my friend I was walking to class with. She didn’t see what the big deal was, apparently just associating Scientology with Tom Cruise, and thinking it was a little batty, but no big deal. After that I asked some friends if they knew about Scientology, and the horrible things the organization has been responsible for. No one knew much about it at all! I wonder how many unsuspecting college students were taken in by the seemingly non-threatening booth? And that is one of my big problems with Scientology. Religions, even extreme ones, don’t hide what they’re preaching in that manner. Sure some might start out with “We can help you find happiness, inner peace, etc.,” but within the first few minutes there is a mention of whichever spiritual entity they are pushing. With Scientology, they don’t start out describing their “alien spirit” crap during their “stress test.” They can’t, they would be laughed at and people would walk away. Even without reading through articles and accounts linked here and other places (which I have), just the simple deception is enough to let me know that they are bad news. I have a hard time accepting something as a religion when the first step is duping people. ---
**Author:** ![Cemetery\_Savior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Cemetery\_Savior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cemetery_Savior)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/269 "2006-08-03T19:46:58Z")
[QUOTE=UKCatGirl] I have a hard time accepting something as a religion when the first step is duping people. [/QUOTE] Man…that’s a whole new thread! I fail to see how Scientology is different from any other organized religion in that respect, but I agree that the CoS is shifty at best. -Cem ---
**Author:** ![UKCatGirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a88e57/32.png) [@UKCatGirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UKCatGirl)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/270 "2006-08-03T20:19:42Z")
**Cemetery Savior** , I think I worded that last sentence differently than what I intended to convey, because I understand that many people would say that any religion is “duping” someone, and I certainly am not trying to get into _that_ debate. What I meant it to mean was more “bait-and-switch” because of the initial “stress test,” etc, as opposed to most other religions (AFAIK) that make their purpose known from the get-go. After I submitted that I realized my word choice there might not have been the best, sorry for any confusion about my statement. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/271 "2006-08-03T20:28:36Z")
[QUOTE=Cemetery Savior] Man…that’s a whole new thread! I fail to see how Scientology is different from any other organized religion in that respect, but I agree that the CoS is shifty at best. -Cem [/QUOTE] Imagine joining a religion where you have to belong for several years and pay tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars before you’re told that their **basic beliefs** are that god created everything, that jesus is the son of god and that jesus died for your sins. See the problem? I’m an atheist and think the jesus story is as wacky as the xenu story, but at least the christian religions let you know immediately what their beliefs are, and most certainly what their _core_ belief is. In most cases you know in advance, or can easily find out without the religion filing lawsuits or throwing out lawsuit threats at anyone who would tell you. The cienos fought long and hard to keep the Xenu story hidden, and they're still forbidden to talk about it. A CO spokeswoman saying “I don’t know what you’re talking about” when asked about Xenu in an MTV interview would be like a Christian saying “I don’t know what you’re talking about” when asked if god created the universe, though that’s not a perfect analogy, because it’s very possible the spokeswoman _didn’t_ know about Xenu because she hadn’t reached OTIII yet. Imagine an atheist knowing that christianity is based on the belief that an entity called god created the universe, but christians who hadn’t been in their religions long enough and hadn’t paid enough money not knowing that and not believing you. What religion on earth, currently or that ever existed, hid their core beliefs until you paid enough money to be told? The CO$ takes duping to a whole other level and is very different from all organized religions (I left out the word “other”). UKCatGirl’s experience with clueless classmates shows that the word needs to be spread more about how slimy the CO$ is. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/272 "2006-08-03T20:57:09Z")
> [@](#): > > What religion on earth, currently or that ever existed, hid their core beliefs until you paid enough money to be told? > > The CO$ takes duping to a whole other level and is very different from all organized religions (I left out the word “other”). Bad question – Christianity, in its early days, hid parts of the Mass and their beliefs from those not initiated. They didn’t require the equivalent of many thousands of dollars, but they did require commitment. At a certain point in the Mass, they’d ask those not belonging to leave. In this they weren’t different from a lot of Graeco-Roman Mystery religions, the core beliefs of which were, well, _mysteries_. Sometimes the mystery itself is enough to draw in the curious, and to invest those mysteries, when discovered, with a special aura. My problem with Scientology aren’t with its mysteries or secretiveness, but with their scurrilous behavior in persecuting those they perceive as enemies and in committing crimes against the government and other authority. _That_ doesn’t make for Good Neighbors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579.md?page=13)