# The Cult of Scientology: Always Attack, Never Defend **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 22, 2006, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579 "2006-07-22T05:22:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/61 "2006-07-23T20:19:24Z")
In that famous _South Park_ episodes, most of the Scientologists are true believers, but the president of the church buys none of it and sees the whole thing as a money-making scam. 1. Did Hubbard believe his own doctrines? 2. Do his successors? No way for any of us to know, of course, but it might be interesting to speculate. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/62 "2006-07-23T21:10:05Z")
Inserts the [obligatory link to Operation Clambake](http://www.xenu.net/). LRH was a liar, confidence man and mediocre author. He lied incessantly, made shit up, and wrote fiction, albeit _very bad fiction_. Then [there’s this:](http://www.xenu.net/roland-intro.html)" > [@](#): > > Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion. > > Reader’s Digest reprint, May 1980, p.1 I personally believe that LRH, at the time, _made it all up as a scam_. As time went on, the suckers fell for it all too well, and LRH began to lose control of his con game. Later, LRH’s mental health issues led to substance abuse and he then lost the ability to control his scam, and perhaps he even began to believe it himself. LRH was a narcissistic megalomaniac, and this scheme gave him the wealth, power and acknowledgement that his failed family life, failed Navy service and failed writing efforts did not bring him. In short, he was just thte sort of loser who needed to create his own little world in which he was not a loser. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/63 "2006-07-23T21:39:49Z")
I love [rotten.com](http://rotten.com)’s [biography of Hubbard](http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/cult/l-ron-hubbard/). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/64 "2006-07-23T21:43:56Z")
[QUOTE=Equipoise] Yeah, they pulled that shit with Katrina too. I was furious when that blonde bimbo that comes on after Kieth Olberman on MSNBC went all fawny and kiss-ass to Kirsty Alley and her orange-shirted zombie crew during prime-time. [/QUOTE] Rita Cosby. Keith did say once, “Rita’s nice, but dumber than a suitcase of rocks.” Guess he was right. Didn’t they once manage to frame a journalist for terroristic threats? ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/65 "2006-07-23T23:24:49Z")
What I can’t work out and never have been able to is why high profile Hollywooders would want to associate with this “church” when Hubbard’s illegal actions and mental health issues and substance abuse are common knowlege. It has only been relatively recently that Hollywooders are willing to openly admit they are gay for fear of loss of income and roles etc - the ‘fear by association’ thing. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/66 "2006-07-24T00:18:32Z")
[QUOTE=waterj2] I love [rotten.com](http://rotten.com)’s [biography of Hubbard](http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/cult/l-ron-hubbard/). [/QUOTE] Interesting bits to mention, only because I want (and expect) to see if they are true: > [@](#): > > Jun 1983 “I believed in Satanism. There was no other religion in the house! Scientology and black magic. What a lot of people don’t realize is that Scientology is black magic that is just spread out over a long time period. To perform black magic generally takes a few hours or, at most, a few weeks. But in Scientology it’s stretched out over a lifetime, and so you don’t see it. Black magic is the inner core of Scientology — and it is probably the only part of Scientology that really works.” Penthouse interview. > > 20 Jun 1984 The court issues its ruling in Scientology v. Armstrong: The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and the bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder LRH. The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it comes to his history, background, and achievements. The writings and documents in evidence additionally reflect his egoism, greed, avarice, lust for power, and vindictiveness and aggressiveness against persons perceived by him to be disloyal or hostile. At the same time it appears that he is charismatic and highly capable of motivating, organizing, controlling, manipulating, and inspiring his adherents. He has been referred to during this trial as a “genius,” a “revered person,” a man who was "viewed by his followers with awe. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/67 "2006-07-24T00:26:03Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] Interesting bits to mention, only because I want (and expect) to see if they are true: [/QUOTE] That quote sounds just like something Jack Chick would make up for one of his tracts, but in this case I can believe it. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/68 "2006-07-24T00:25:57Z")
[QUOTE=Equipoise] Step 6: Watch $cieno executives smirk at yet another successful attempt to make critics look like dangerous loonballs. You’re kidding? Of course, but they’d have this kind of thing printed out and used in a random court case if they needed it. [/QUOTE] Well, when I become God-Emperor of the Universe, these cretins will be hunted down and exterminated like the vermin they are. The Constitution means nothing to a G-E. In fact, I could probably augment my coffers by issuing hunting licenses. “One a day - One in possession.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/69 "2006-07-24T00:55:02Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] That quote sounds just like something Jack Chick would make up for one of his tracts, but in this case I can believe it. [/QUOTE] My google-fu is pointing that the interview is real, but it was with L. Ron Hubbard _ **Jr** _. It seems he had to change his name and move constantly to avoid church retribution to this day. :eek: Still looking for the Court decision. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/70 "2006-07-24T03:32:24Z")
[Narconon and Scientology](http://www.xenu.net/archive/oca/narconon/control.html). Note that it is Narc **o** non, not Narc **a** non. To me, that intentional confusion alone is damning enough: The people behind Narconon would be slime even if they weren’t associated with anyone else in the world. [But, of course, there is this](http://www.narconon.org/about_lronhubbard.htm): > [@Official Narconon website](#): > > The Narconon program has from the beginning been founded on key principles developed by author and humanitarian L. Ron Hubbard. The only people who lionize Hubbard like that are Scientologists. The only Scientologists who have the desire and money to run something like Narconon are the ones in the CoS. I haven’t been able to find any evidence online of a trademark lawsuit between NA and Narconon, which really surprises me. [NA apparently does claim trademark over something or things on its website](http://www.na.org/legal/copyrite.htm), but that isn’t sufficient. In the US, trademarks must be registered with the USPTO and must be defended or they are lost. I have no idea how relevant any of that is to this specific case. [Wikipedia on Narconon.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narconon) Plenty of references in that article. [One of which is this: The bastards want into the schools.](http://www.rickross.com/reference/scientology/narconon/narconon5.html) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/71 "2006-07-24T03:41:23Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] My google-fu is pointing that the interview is real, but it was with L. Ron Hubbard _ **Jr** _. [/QUOTE] And that sounds like one of those key facts Chick would . . . elide. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/72 "2006-07-24T03:43:08Z")
[QUOTE=cerberus] I personally believe that LRH, at the time, _made it all up as a scam_. As time went on, the suckers fell for it all too well, and LRH began to lose control of his con game. Later, LRH’s mental health issues led to substance abuse and he then lost the ability to control his scam, and perhaps he even began to believe it himself. > [@](#): > > But what about the Scientology leaders of **today?** Do they believe or not? > > [QUOTE=cerberus] > LRH was a narcissistic megalomaniac, and this scheme gave him the wealth, power and acknowledgement that his failed family life, failed Navy service and failed writing efforts did not bring him. In short, he was just thte sort of loser who needed to create his own little world in which he was not a loser. 🙂 A true American success story! Go thou and do likewise! ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/73 "2006-07-24T04:13:05Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] Still looking for the Court decision. [/QUOTE] Here’s an article from the San Francisco Chronicle about the case quoting some of the same lines from the decision: [http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/03/25/BAGSM5PH3B21.DTL](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/03/25/BAGSM5PH3B21.DTL) ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/74 "2006-07-24T07:43:17Z")
[QUOTE=cerberus] I personally believe that LRH, at the time, _made it all up as a scam_. As time went on, the suckers fell for it all too well, and LRH began to lose control of his con game. Later, LRH’s mental health issues led to substance abuse and he then lost the ability to control his scam, and perhaps he even began to believe it himself. [/QUOTE] Slight Hijack: I think something much like this is almost exactly what happened to Joseph smith as well. End hijack. Just sayin’ ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/75 "2006-07-24T07:59:10Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] My google-fu is pointing that the interview is real, but it was with L. Ron Hubbard _ **Jr** _. It seems he had to change his name and move constantly to avoid church retribution to this day. :eek: Still looking for the Court decision. [/QUOTE] Yep. He pretty much repudiated his father and everything the clams stood for. Still, L. Ron Jr. was lucky-Quentin ended up committing suicide. Supposedly he was gay or bisexual. So very sad. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/76 "2006-07-24T08:13:21Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Slight Hijack: I think something much like this is almost exactly what happened to Joseph smith as well. End hijack. Just sayin’ [/QUOTE] Really? What substance did Smith abuse? What were his mental health issues? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/77 "2006-07-24T08:20:55Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] Really? What substance did Smith abuse? What were his mental health issues? [/QUOTE] Yeah, I don’t recall Smith infiltrating and trying to scam the US government. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/78 "2006-07-24T08:43:14Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] Really? What substance did Smith abuse? What were his mental health issues? [/QUOTE] To clarify, from this statement: “I personally believe that LRH, at the time, made it all up as a scam. As time went on, the suckers fell for it all too well, and LRH began to lose control of his con game. Later, LRH’s mental health issues led to substance abuse and he then lost the ability to control his scam, and perhaps he even began to believe it himself.” To get what is a more accurate match to what I suspect happened to Joseph smith, the phrase(s) “Later, LRH’s mental health issues led to substance abuse” should be deleted, leaving: “I personally believe that LRH, at the time, made it all up as a scam. As time went on, the suckers fell for it all too well, and LRH began to lose control of his con game. And he then lost the ability to control his scam, and perhaps he even began to believe it himself.” That’s more exactly what I think happened to JS. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/79 "2006-07-24T08:44:59Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Yeah, I don’t recall Smith infiltrating and trying to scam the US government. [/QUOTE] Whereas the poster previous to you had a good reason to wonder whether I had some info about substance abuse and mental health problems suffered by Joseph Smith, on the other hand, I can’t find any reason in my post for you to think I thought Smith infiltrated and tried to scam the US government. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579/80 "2006-07-24T09:36:49Z")
I was pointing out your comparison of Smith to Hubbard was absurd. I’m not LDS, quite frankly, I think a lot of it is hokey (Sorry, **Monty** , but I do), but there’s no fucking way it’s at all in the same league as Scientology. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cult-of-scientology-always-attack-never-defend/365579.md?page=5)