# The "Culture of Corruption"... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 12, 2006, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778 "2006-12-12T03:07:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/21 "2006-12-12T17:07:15Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] At least when the dirty e-mails surfaced to the public, the House Republicans kicked the disgusting pervert out. [/QUOTE] As was mentioned before, he resigned before any action was taken against him. What is disgusting is that the House Republicans knew about Foley for years, and only when the emails were made public did they even consider lifting a finger about it. Before the fall of 2006, they dealt with it by hiding it from the Democrats and keeping it under cover. The fact that minors were endangered by their inaction apparently didn’t enter into their thinking. [QUOTE=Shodan] What are the rest of us supposed to do? [/QUOTE] Maybe sit back and let events play out a bit before judging the Democrats. It seems that some believe that any misconduct, however minor and however long ago, committed by a Democrat is an excuse for any and all high crimes and misdemeanors committed by Republicans in perpetuity. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/22 "2006-12-12T17:07:42Z")
I think **Voyager** is correct about Pelosi’s support for Murtha. It was a public show of support for an ally, while she knew that Hoyer had it wrapped up anyway. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/23 "2006-12-12T17:13:49Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Is that not what this OP is all about? I seem to recall enormous effort among the Republicans in 2000 speaking loudly about “restoring integrity” to politics (and even the nation). So the Republicans wound up delivering business as usual, got caught with their hands in the till (and their eyes on the pages), and the Democrats used their weapon against them. Whoever has the most power in 2008 will discover that their hijinks are being exposed in record levels while the out-of-power party’s indiscretions will be shrugged off as the missteps of minor individuals. [/QUOTE] What they delivered was not business as usual. They forced the lobbyists to`` purge their staffs of any one leaning left or clearly Democratic. They walked on the floor passing out checks. They kept reps up all night to force votes through. They were many times worse than anything done before and were proud of how they were remaking the system to serve them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/24 "2006-12-12T17:52:24Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I think bribes go a little beyond apathy and trying for re-election above all. Republicans? Murtha is a Democrat - was that a typo? Again, ISTM that bribery of the sort Jefferson seems to have been involved in goes well beyond run-of-the-mill scandals. If the voters of NO and LA yawn when their representatives accept bribes, possibly that explains why their disaster recovery was not up to snuff, as I mentioned earlier. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] Being a former Louisiana resident, this is nothing new. When I lived there, all the people running for the head of the Agriculture Department were either under indictment or under investigation. However corruption is not equal to incompetence, as Chicago indicates. I don’t know of any evidence that corruption played any role in the Katrina mess; Brownie might have been incompetent, but he seems honest enough. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/25 "2006-12-12T18:17:50Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] What they delivered was not business as usual. They forced the lobbyists to`` purge their staffs of any one leaning left or clearly Democratic. They walked on the floor passing out checks. They kept reps up all night to force votes through. They were many times worse than anything done before and were proud of how they were remaking the system to serve them. [/QUOTE] Keeping congresscritters up all night to force quora and get votes is a time-honored practice by both parties. Compelling some lobbying groups to purge “wrong thinking” lobbyists was a bit odd, but I am not sure how unethical it was. (“Wrong thinking” lobbyists would hardly be getting the desired votes.) I would have to see genuine evidence that either the RNC or right-wing lobbyists were actually passing out cash on the House or Senate floor before I accepted that as more than partisan hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/26 "2006-12-12T18:24:40Z")
[http://mediamatters.org/items/200602030010](http://mediamatters.org/items/200602030010) Sorry I think this is on an unprecedented level. Delahttp://www.hsv.com/writers/tommytru/may2396.htmy and Frist finally paid but not enough. The act of passing out checks on the floor is well known. They had no brakes on their cottuption. Does Abramhof ring a bell. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/27 "2006-12-12T18:41:00Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] What are the rest of us supposed to do? [/QUOTE] [Here’s](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264462) an idea. And [here’s](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=276143) another. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/28 "2006-12-12T19:04:05Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I think Murtha was a bad choice, but for political reasons. He refused a bribe, though for some reason it seems to have tarred him, and I’ve heard nothing bad about him since then. > [@Zoe](#): > > The same holds true for Murtha. I admit that he wasn’t indicted and he didn’t take the bribe. He was, however, present when they tried to bribe him! Explain that away! Even the House Ethics Committee didn’t reprimand him. That was in 1978. There was something fishy there. AFAICT, the valid ethics concerns about Murtha aren’t so much about his (non-)involvement with the Abscam sting back in the '70s (although that was what the OP, rather absurdly, seemed to be emphasizing) as about his cozy relationships with defense lobbyists while on the House Appropriations subcommittee. IMHO Murtha’s conduct doesn’t approach Abramoff-sized or DeLay-sized levels of corruption, but that doesn’t mean it’s not matter for concern. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/29 "2006-12-12T19:36:21Z")
[Quote=Shodan] This is bad, right? I mean, I was waiting for some of the lefties here who was really serious about clean politics to speak out about this, knowing as I do that the Usual Suspects will immediately deny, nitpick, ignore, distract, and fire off the usual barrage of tu quoques. After all, that’s what they do. But do the rest of y’all care about this? [/Quote] Yes, political corruption is a bad thing. I’m glad we could get this issue out in the open so that others know where each of us stands. As for the “Unindicted co-conspirator” jab (at Murtha?), if the OP has some evidence that Murtha is factually guilty of corruption but for some reason has not been prosecuted for it, feel free to post it. I’ll listen. (Full disclosure: Murtha is congressman of the district I grew up in, I’ve voted for him in the past, and a family I’ve always been quite close to live right across the street from his family home in Johnstown, PA. Despite that, I don’t feel I have any particular averesion to hearing about ethics problems with Murtha if they exist). > [@](#): > > Does this cast any light on possible reasons why Katrina was not dealt with as perhaps it should? If this ass hole can get re-elected with the FBI catching him dead to rights, maybe the feds aren’t the only or the most incompetent politicians in disaster recovery. Frankly, no, unless you or someone else can show that Jefferson was diverting money or goods intended for disaster recovery. I seem to recall reading something about him having commandeered a helicopter to retrieve something from his house during the aftermath of Katrina, but I don’t think that’s what the OP was referring to. In any event, one can find [any](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194406,00.html) [number](http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-05-jefferson_x.htm) of [news](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6387196) [reports](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=2082567) from the May-June 2006 period reporting that Jefferson had been forced off the House Ways and Means Committee, that Pelosi had called for an investigation of Jefferson by the House Ethics Committee, and for him to resign. Does the OP have any particular evidence that Pelosi has gone back on on any of these things? > [@](#): > > What are the rest of us supposed to do? There is so much screaming about Republicans hereabouts that it is sometimes difficult to work up the interest to start threads about anything else, because of the determined efforts of the dedicated asswipes to shout down anything other than Republican-hate. Is that how this collection of scandals, a few weeks after the elections, is going to go down on the SDMB and in the Congress? Point of order: what is the constructive purpose of all the editorializing about what the OP perceives as “Republican-hate” on this board? Does the OP believe that most persons reading these threads are too effing stupid to figure out when someone is arguing purely from a partisan viewpoint? Getting back to the OP’s claimed subject for debate, it seems to me he has not actually shown that there is a “collection of scandals” that has taken place “a few weeks after the elections”. The scandals that Murtha never actually seems to have been prosecuted for apparently refer to events somewhere in the 2002-2005 timeframe, or if the OP is referring to the ABSCAM sting, more than 20 years ago. Jefferson’s troubles took place well before the elections. So, just asking here, what are the post-election “collection of scandals” we’re supposed to be talking about ? Sorry, it’s just not clear to me. Lastly, I’m interested in what the OP thinks we should do? Call a special election and vote the Republicans back in?? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/30 "2006-12-12T19:50:27Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] In fact, this did not happen; he resigned. [/quote] Out of the blue? Not hardly. I find that Foley resigned before Hastert had a chance to ask for his resignation. Jefferson does not seem to feel the same need, thus giving Pelosi far more of an opportunity to ask him to do so - which she has thus far failed to do. > [@](#): > > All that said, I also agree with this: > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by rjung > > Amazing how the name “Pelosi” triggers such a stringent demand for government accountability and ethics from friend Shodan when earlier names like “DeLay,” “Cunningham,” “Abramoff,” “Hastert,” “Frist,” “Santorum,” yadda yadda yadda failed to do so. Well, it’s not like any of you are going to mention the subject, least of all someone who considers the expectation that Congressmen not have bribe money in their freezers to be a “stringent demand”. Not that I find a content-free tu quoque from the person with whom you agree to be “amazing” in the slightest. > [@Voyager](#): > > Being a former Louisiana resident, this is nothing new. I find this amazing, however - tens of thousands in bribe money, and everyone reacts with indifference. Is the Democratic party in Louisiana really that much of a sinkhole? The mind boggles. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > What is disgusting is that the House Republicans knew about Foley for years, and only when the emails were made public did they even consider lifting a finger about it. Well, Pelosi certainly knows about the Jefferson bribe investigation and the money now - yet she has done nothing of note about it. Not even a word spoken. And I find it hard to believe she knew nothing of Murtha and the Abscam scandal - it was in all the papers. > [@Kimstu](#): > > AFAICT, the valid ethics concerns about Murtha aren’t so much about his (non-)involvement with the Abscam sting back in the '70s (although that was what the OP, rather absurdly, seemed to be emphasizing) as about his cozy relationships with defense lobbyists while on the House Appropriations subcommittee. Not from where I am sitting. The part that bothers me was the part on the videotape where Murtha says he is not interested in a bribe “right now - maybe later” after they have done some “business”. I thought it was Democrats with sex scandals and Republicans with money scandals. Now it is the opposite - the world is turned on its ear. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/31 "2006-12-12T20:04:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The part that bothers me was the part on the videotape where Murtha says he is not interested in a bribe “right now - maybe later” after they have done some “business”. 😕 The hell?! You’re seriously claiming that what “bothers” you most about John Murtha, as far as the “culture of corruption” issue is concerned, is not his **present-day** questionable relationships with powerful lobbyists, but rather the fact that **almost thirty years ago** he was recorded as saying that he **might** be open to a bribe at some unspecified point in the future? Even though he’d outright **refused** bribes from the same source several times already? Even though he’s never been accused of involvement in a similar open-bribery scandal since? That’s really the thing that “bothers” you? Dude, get out of the way and let **me** defend your OP; I think I’m doing a better job of it than you are. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/32 "2006-12-12T20:06:04Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] And I find it hard to believe she knew nothing of Murtha and the Abscam scandal - it was in all the papers.Not from where I am sitting. The part that bothers me was the part on the videotape where Murtha says he is not interested in a bribe “right now - maybe later” after they have done some “business”. [/QUOTE] Good heavens. For being present when someone was trying to entrap him into a crime and then declining, this should be a scandal 20+ years later? What’s the angle- they wouldn’t have tried to entrap him if they didn’t think he was guilty and the fact that he declined the bribe is irrelevant? So the voters in Louisiana reelected someone with some cash in the freezer. What was Pelosi to do, campaign against him? Or, before she becomes Speaker, refuse to seat him? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/33 "2006-12-12T20:23:13Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] So the voters in Louisiana reelected someone with some cash in the freezer. What was Pelosi to do, campaign against him? Or, before she becomes Speaker, refuse to seat him? [/QUOTE] Yeah! And why stop at simple corruption which cost no lives? Refuse to seat the people who got thousands of innocent people killed to start with! Then we can refuse to seat pro-abortionists who don’t mind that we’re killing unborn children! Why stop there? We shouldn’t seat anyone not from MyFavoriteReligiousSect because I have all the answers and you don’t! ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/34 "2006-12-12T20:25:12Z")
We will live with this until meaningful campaign financing reform arrives. We get part time legislators and full time money raisers. The Repubs did the work ,made the money available and made it clear what they expected in return. It was automation of the corrupting force in politics. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/35 "2006-12-12T21:39:12Z")
[Quote=Shodan] Well, Pelosi certainly knows about the Jefferson bribe investigation and the money now - yet she has done nothing of note about it. Not even a word spoken. And I find it hard to believe she knew nothing of Murtha and the Abscam scandal - it was in all the papers. [/Quote] False. 1. Please acknowledge my cites showing that Pelosi has called for Jefferson’s investigation and for his resignation. 2. Please explain why Pelosi MUST be required to drop Murtha from consideration for a post because of a more than 20-year-old investigation that exonerated him. Sorry, but I really don’t think you are arguing your points very effectively. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/36 "2006-12-12T22:27:43Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I thought it was Democrats with sex scandals and Republicans with money scandals. Now it is the opposite - the world is turned on its ear. [/QUOTE] Hear, hear! The Democratic Party **must not lose its lead in sex scandals!** Get out there and **rut like hogs in heat,** people! Our honor is at stake! ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/37 "2006-12-12T22:43:25Z")
Well, for the sake of the honor of the Party, I volunteer (reluctantly, of course) to be enmeshed in a tawdry sex scandal with Rep. Tom Udall. If that’s too respectably heterosexual for the image we’re striving after, I guess you could sign me up for Tammy Baldwin instead, but it would probably have to involve drugs and alcohol. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/38 "2006-12-12T23:48:40Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] a content-free tu quoque [/quote] The irony from the OP is breathtaking. [qutoe]Well, Pelosi certainly knows about the Jefferson bribe investigation and the money now - yet she has done nothing of note about it. Not even a word spoken. [/quote] Go check the news from somebody other than Fox. She’s kicking Jefferson off his Ways and Means seat. > [@](#): > > And I find it hard to believe she knew nothing of Murtha and the Abscam scandal - it was in all the papers. What you know of it is, well, what ? What do \*you \* think Murtha did wrong? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/39 "2006-12-12T23:54:41Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] Well, for the sake of the honor of the Party, I volunteer (reluctantly, of course) to be enmeshed in a tawdry sex scandal with Rep. Tom Udall. If that’s too respectably heterosexual for the image we’re striving after, I guess you could sign me up for Tammy Baldwin instead, but it would probably have to involve drugs and alcohol. [/QUOTE] Howabout one with Foley.? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778/40 "2006-12-12T23:56:16Z")
I just basically assume that politicians are going to be corrupt. I think it would be naive to the point of idiocy to vote for a political party out of any expectation that they’re going to cean anything up. Corruption in Congress is like cold in the winter. It’s just the order of things. I really don’t care as long as they can impede the current President and make conservatives unhappy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-of-corruption/383778.md?page=3)