# The Culture Wars' New Front: U.S. History Classes in Texas (WSJ Article) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050 "2009-07-14T22:10:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/41 "2009-07-15T16:13:44Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > - The perpetuation of a divisive “culture war” rending the social fabric of America I snipped everything else because I agree with it. On this one all I have to say is, “It takes two to tango.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/42 "2009-07-15T16:16:20Z")
Schools should not be dedicated to showing that “Christianity has historically been a force for good”, or the like. Schools should be dedicated to the truth. If the truth turns out to be that Christianity has been a force for good, then that should be taught, but not because it’s pro-Christian, but because it’s true. Likewise, in those cases where Christianity has _not_ been a force for good, that should be taught, too. Frankly, promoting Christianity without regard for truth is worship, not of God or Christ, but of a set of cultural ideals, and worship of a culture is something that true Christians really should be up in arms against. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/43 "2009-07-15T16:16:31Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The trick is to teach the kids the debate, not the resolution of debates that have yet to be resolved. When you teach a resolution as you _would like_ for it to be resolved, that is where you run up against a heavy bias. I couldn’t agree more. Especially when it comes to the founding. Let kids learn, for instance, what Jefferson really believed, and not let them be stuck with the cartoonish icon of him being an atheist or anti-religionist, or even a secularist. It’s simply a lie that has been—and is—perpetuated by many on the left. (For the record, I don’t practice any religion.) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/44 "2009-07-15T16:17:12Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > My wife is an elementary school teacher, and I already see that many of the textbooks are labeled “California edition”. Maybe the same will happen in Texas. " **Texas Edition** - **Now with More Ignorance!!**" ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/45 "2009-07-15T16:20:18Z")
[QUOTE] > [@sqweels](#): > > Don’t forget that there are plenty of negative aspects to the history of Christianity in America, such as: > > - The use of the Bible to justify slavery -The Bible was also used to condemn slavery. > [@](#): > > - The claim by the Confederacy that God was on their side -So did the Union and also while they were traitors the CSA was not an evil Proto-Nazi country. > [@](#): > > - The harm that missionaries often inflicted on Native American communities -The benefits of civilization teh missionaries brought and them attempting to protect the Indians from violence and removals. > [@](#): > > - The arrogance of “Manifest Destiny” -Perhaps mildly arrogant but it was the ancestor of the ideology of American Exceptionalism. > [@](#): > > - The history of discrimination against Jews and Catholics -True but very minor compared to the discrimnation in Europe. All our Founding Fathers were tolerant of Catholics and Jews. > [@](#): > > - The interference of religion in science (Scopes Monkey trial, etc.) -True > [@](#): > > - The Christian underpinnings of the Ku Klux Klan and other white supramacist groups -Many have neo-pagan underpinnings nowadays (mostly the neo-Nazis not the KKK remnants). Also the Christian underpinnings of civil rights movements. > [@](#): > > - The ongoing discrimination against gays -Outside of gay marriage and Don’t Ask Don’t Tell very minor. > [@](#): > > - The perpetuation of a divisive “culture war” rending the social fabric of America -Well both sides of the culture wars are to blame. The hippies started it by attacking virtually every American value. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/46 "2009-07-15T16:21:38Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, this is more of a common fallacy I see that I don’t know if there is a name for. I’ll call it _argument ad legalum_. 😉 It’s the idea that legal history supersedes cultural history, which it does not. No one is arguing that religion was not a part of the formation of the United States. It is one aspect of many and certainly needs to be taught and, at least when I was in high school in the 80’s, was taught. They also taught me about the Reformation and the Crusades and many other things that were heavy with religion as a force of those times. I have zero problem with any of that. What the guys in the OP are on about is quite different though. Perhaps you missed this part I posted earlier: _“The curriculum, they say, should clearly present Christianity as an overall force for good – and a key reason for American exceptionalism, the notion that the country stands above and apart.”_ I’m surprised you cannot see the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/47 "2009-07-15T16:23:27Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > The perpetuation of a divisive “culture war” rending the social fabric of America > > I snipped everything else because I agree with it. On this one all I have to say is, “It takes two to tango.” Nonsense. This is moral relativism at it most putrid – not to mention simply absurd, e.g.: [QUOTE=L. Sprague deCamp] “You don’t like the Goths?” “No! Not with the persecution we have to put up with!” “Persecution?” Padway raised his eyebrows. “Religious persecution. We won’t stand for it forever.” “But I thought the Goths let everybody worship as they pleased.” “That’s just it! We Orthodox are forced to stand around and watch Arians and Monophysites and Nestorians and Jews going about their business unmolested, as if they owned the country! If that isn’t persecution, I’d like to know what is!” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/48 "2009-07-15T16:25:15Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Nonsense. This is moral relativism at it most putrid – not to mention simply absurd, e.g.: You’re right, as **Curtis LeMay** points out the culture war is generally a creation of the Left. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/49 "2009-07-15T16:38:25Z")
> [@](#): > > “The curriculum, they say, should clearly present Christianity as an overall force for good – and a key reason for American exceptionalism, the notion that the country stands above and apart.” This is the part that is so baffling. The United States was not exceptional in being a nation of Christians. We broke off from Christian England. All the colonisers of the new world were Christian nations. WTF are they trying to teach here? Do they want us to teach that it was OK to steal land from the Indians because they weren’t Christians? I mean seriously, WTF are they trying to say? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/50 "2009-07-15T16:50:32Z")
I see **mswas** wasn’t actually referring to the _formation_ of the U.S. where churches were supposedly so pivotal (i.e. events leading up to the Revolutionary breakaway from England), but to history in general. I was having trouble with the concept that religion was essential to the founding of the nation. > [@mswas](#): > > No, I think we should teach the debate, not the answer to the debate. Neither side should win out, and ultimately both sides have historically manipulated curriculums to their own agendas. This sounds a lot like the weaselly “teach the controversy” proposal regarding the teaching of evolution, which emanates from creationists and is purely an attempt to sneak religious doctrine into science classes. I think you can have a consensus among good historians as to what led to specific events, without dooming history teaching to “well, one side says this, and another says _this_, so who knows what really happened?” The concept that “it’s our turn to slant things now” is more than “troubling”. It’s reprehensible and disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/51 "2009-07-15T16:52:46Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It’s funny how ideologues cannot possibly comprehend that someone who doesn’t 100% agree with them is not lying or stupid. Wow. I haven’t been called an ideologue in _years_. It feels weird. The point I was attempting to make is the one **Whack-A-Mole** makes about four posts up. The religious views of the founding groups are definitely worth teaching and I have no objection to having been taught them. The approach advocated by the group in the OP giving an exclusively positive spin to the effects of these views, which have been a mixed bag, is blatant revisionism and borderline advocacy. Yes? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/52 "2009-07-15T16:55:18Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I see **mswas** wasn’t actually referring to the _formation_ of the U.S. where churches were supposedly so pivotal (i.e. events leading up to the Revolutionary breakaway from England), but to history in general. I was having trouble with the concept that religion was essential to the founding of the nation. Religion was essential to the founding of this nation. The contrary opinion is simply wrong. > [@](#): > > This sounds a lot like the weaselly “teach the controversy” proposal regarding the teaching of evolution, which emanates from creationists and is purely an attempt to sneak religious doctrine into science classes. :rolleyes: We aren’t talking about science we are talking about social studies. The same criteria do not even remotely apply. Social Studies is the appropriate class in which to teach political controversy. > [@](#): > > I think you can have a consensus among good historians as to what led to specific events, without dooming history teaching to “well, one side says this, and another says _this_, so who knows what really happened?” The concept that “it’s our turn to slant things now” is more than “troubling”. The teaching of history is ALWAYS slanted, and that’s the point. > [@](#): > > It’s reprehensible and disgusting. No reprehensible and disgusting is teaching to an agenda and trying to convince people that it’s the more objective of the two subjects. History is by its very nature subjective. If you are judging it by the criteria of a science class then you are just doing the exact same things the Creationists were doing to Science classes only in the other direction. **Whack-a-Mole** I refer you to my first post in this thread where I acknowledged the issue and pointed out that it’s a necessary result of the culture war which many in this thread (not you) are tenaciously fighting. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/53 "2009-07-15T16:56:30Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Wow. I haven’t been called an ideologue in _years_. It feels weird. > > The point I was attempting to make is the one **Whack-A-Mole** makes about four posts up. The religious views of the founding groups are definitely worth teaching and I have no objection to having been taught them. The approach advocated by the group in the OP giving an exclusively positive spin to the effects of these views, which have been a mixed bag, is blatant revisionism and borderline advocacy. > > Yes? Yes, I agree that Christianity should not be taught as an inevitable force for good leading to American exceptionalism. I think **DanBlather** summed it up perfectly when he points out that we split off from Christian Europe. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/54 "2009-07-15T17:08:59Z")
Question: During the American Revolution, to what extent did those loyal to the British Crown use religious arguments to make their case? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/55 "2009-07-15T17:18:58Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > **LonesomePolecat** a relativist? Who knew? (shrug) To some extent, yes. No one is completely objective and impartial about history. My point, though, is that Begbert and others on this thread aren’t concerned with an impartial presentation of history, they’re concerned that somebody has challenged their right to use the public schools to promote their take on American history. And the word “revisionist” is thrown around much too lightly these days, but that’s probably a whole 'nother thread. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/56 "2009-07-15T17:23:51Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Do they want us to teach that it was OK to steal land from the Indians because they weren’t Christians? And why not? After all, they were busy stealing it from each other when the Europeans first arrived anyway. White brother wasn’t playing a new game. He just played the old game better, and red brother didn’t have a problem with the game until he lost. Obviously it isn’t only Christians who are guilty of simple minded moralizing and putting a spin on history. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/57 "2009-07-15T17:24:09Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I’m becoming more despondent lately as I see stuff like this, watch the Sotomayer hearing, and just reflect in general about how fellow citizens can elect such complete Neanderthals as Boehner. > > Maybe it really is time to divide the country up. There are vast parts of the US who want a Christian-centered government, fight healthcare reform, and want to see gays back in the closet. At the same time they are happy to feed from the Federal teat while decrying big goverment… That’s a [group of Texans](http://www.tfn.org/site/PageServer) offering “A mainstream voice to counter the Religious Right.” They are already planning for next year’s State Board of Education elections–which might help prevent future atrocities. And there’s news that “the religious right failed to pass any major parts of its legislative agenda during the regular session.” Yes, this latest idiocy is discussed. (And it looks as though the\* WSJ \*has read TFN press releases.) > [@](#): > > Just weeks after working to dumb down instruction on evolution in the public school science curriculum, culture warriors on the State Board of Education are gearing up for an assault on social studies. The board’s far-right faction is already moving to appoint absurdly unqualified ideologues who oppose church-state separation to an “expert” panel for guiding the development of new social studies standards. The state board is scheduled to adopt the new standards by March 2011. Most Texans do not agree with these fools. But their backers have been working for years to put them in positions of power. Most people just don’t pay much attention to school board elections, etc. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/58 "2009-07-15T17:32:32Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Question: During the American Revolution, to what extent did those loyal to the British Crown use religious arguments to make their case? [http://atheism.about.com/b/2003/10/17/divine-rights-and-the-ten-commandments.htm](http://atheism.about.com/b/2003/10/17/divine-rights-and-the-ten-commandments.htm) > [@](#): > > John B. Hodges writes in the Roanoke Times: > > ``` > "The history of divinely anointed government was not good. The Bible has not one word supporting religious liberty... Neither does the Bible support "equal rights" in any form; slavery was taken for granted, in the Old Testament and the New. In the American Revolution we rebelled against this theory. King George III was allegedly king by the grace of God; our founders denied that. They could have set up another king, and claimed that our new government ruled by the grace of God, but they did not. They declared a different theory, that governments were human institutions, created by the people for their mutual defense. > > Governments represented the people, receiving their authority from the people. The first 52 words of our Constitution state this premise. Our government is not authorized to speak, much less rule, on religious matters; individual conscience rules instead. [Christian theocrats in America] want the government to post the Ten Commandments because that would proclaim the theocratic premise that the law comes from God and the government rules by the authority of God." > > ``` > > Hodges makes some very important points here. Governments are human institutions, not divinely appointed or supported institutions. Some people may like to think that their government has been invested with a special mission from God, but that premise simply isn’t a part of our governing system - nor should it be. Our laws are human laws, not divine laws. Our rights are human rights, not divine rights. Loyalist preachers found trouble for still maintaining the view that the king was king for the grace of god: > **[The literary history of the American revolution, 1763-1783 : Tyler, Moses...](http://archive.org/stream/literaryhistory07tylegoog/literaryhistory07tylegoog_djvu.txt)** > > Book digitized by Google from the library of University of California and uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb. > [@](#): > > For, so is the will of God, that with well-doing > ye may put to silence the ignorance of > foolish men ; as free, and not using your liberty for a cloak > of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Honor all > men : love the brotherhood : fear God : honor the king.’ " ’ > It was for the crime of giving such instruction as this to > his congregation, in the parish of Queen Anne in Prince > George’s County, Maryland, that he was at last forcibly > prevented from entering his own pulpit, and was treated, as > he himself declared, " with such unmerited insult and indig- > nity as, I believe, has seldom been experienced by persons > of my calling in any civilized and Christian country." > > “The literary history of the American revolution, 1763-1783” ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/59 "2009-07-15T17:35:43Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > And why not? After all, they were busy stealing it from each other when the Europeans first arrived anyway. White brother wasn’t playing a new game. He just played the old game better, and red brother didn’t have a problem with the game until he lost. > > Obviously it isn’t only Christians who are guilty of simple minded moralizing and putting a spin on history. Then you are arguing _against_ American exceptionalism. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/60 "2009-07-15T17:38:23Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Then you are arguing _against_ American exceptionalism. Pretty much, yes. Believe me, I am no idealist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050.md?page=4)