# The Culture Wars' New Front: U.S. History Classes in Texas (WSJ Article) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050 "2009-07-14T22:10:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/101 "2009-07-15T21:30:58Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Right. In my High School we were never taught the Native American tradition of raiding another tribe and stealing their women, children and artisans to swell their ranks. We were not taught that this was done also to the white people who resented that practice dearly. Were you taught about the whites who voluntarily went to live in native societies (and the blacks who escaped to them), and who were forced to return? And about the laws passed by white communities forbidding their members from living in native societies? I only ask because I wasn’t educated here, but had heard tell of the capture of whites you reference, but until recently had heard nothing of the voluntary aspect, and the involuntary nature of the return at times. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/102 "2009-07-15T21:48:58Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Were you taught about the whites who voluntarily went to live in native societies (and the blacks who escaped to them), and who were forced to return? And about the laws passed by white communities forbidding their members from living in native societies? Yes, I think I was. I do not recall specifically where I learned it but I remember hearing about those things when I was younger. > [@](#): > > I only ask because I wasn’t educated here, but had heard tell of the capture of whites you reference, but until recently had heard nothing of the voluntary aspect, and the involuntary nature of the return at times. Ahh. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/103 "2009-07-15T21:51:51Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I’m good with this, but then neither do we have anything to celebrate. If we’ve no real connection to the past, your dry list of dates, events, and proferred rationales should be adequate, without the spin of “American exceptionalism,” reverence to the role of Christianity, or other hoary concepts no one in a modern setting really holds anymore. That was them; this is us. Sure, if Christians want to celebrate their Christian heritage they are more than welcome to. Like everyone else I disagree with the slant the Texas Board of Ed is pulling out with this one, but I do think that Christianity was an integral part of our history and should be recognized. Though I didn’t mean a dry list of dates, that’s kind of pointless. It’s far more interesting when you try to cover their narratives. Obviously you can’t tell every narrative, but it’s useful to let people know what various narratives were, particularly when you teach them about the dialectical conflict between narratives. That’s the very most interesting part of history IMO. The individuals do not survive for centuries but the narratives do, and the way narratives propagate through a semi-Democratic cultural process is simply fascinating to me. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/104 "2009-07-15T21:54:40Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, I think I was. I do not recall specifically where I learned it but I remember hearing about those things when I was younger. You are in the minority then. That aspect seems to be ignored from speaking to people. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/105 "2009-07-15T21:56:41Z")
> [@villa](#): > > You are in the minority then. That aspect seems to be ignored from speaking to people. Where I grew up was in the Southwest so Native American issues was a much bigger part of my state history in New Mexico, so that might be part of why it happened that way. I didn’t learn about the Iroquois relationship much in depth until I was older and moved out East. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/106 "2009-07-15T23:14:37Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > You don’t hear about people being murdered for being gay very often. Sure people get picked on in school for it, and that’s unfortunate but I bet that’s not as prevalent now as in the past. Maybe we can “blame” that on the lack of school prayer. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/107 "2009-07-15T23:39:46Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Sure, if Christians want to celebrate their Christian heritage they are more than welcome to. Like everyone else I disagree with the slant the Texas Board of Ed is pulling out with this one, but I do think that Christianity was an integral part of our history and should be recognized. Indeed, and it was recognized in my school and in the history my daughters took. What isn’t recognized, and certainly won’t be in Texas, was the crucial role deism played in the revolution. Jefferson especially was able to enumerate rights from the natural god, while disavowing the supposed link between the Christian God and the king. In Europe at the time (and even today, to some extent) the power of government comes from God. The United States was one of the first western nations (if not the first) where the power of government came from the people and their natural rights. That’s pretty crucial, and very inconvenient to those claiming we are a Christian nation. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/108 "2009-07-15T23:40:16Z")
I don’t have any quotes or other info in front of me, but I’m willing to bet that opponents of womens’ suffrage and/or the womens’ movement of the 60s/70s at times cited Christian belief. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/109 "2009-07-15T23:47:55Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > I don’t have any quotes or other info in front of me, but I’m willing to bet that opponents of womens’ suffrage and/or the womens’ movement of the 60s/70s at times cited Christian belief. And there’s nothing wrong with teaching that they cited Christian belief. But if you’re willing to teach that, you should also be willing to teach that slave-owners at times cited Christian belief. There’s nothing wrong with mentioning Christianity’s role in history. What’s wrong is trying to give history classes a witnessing slant. That that could happen in these supposedly free united states (and that it apparently _has_ happened in science classes there) is simply horrifying. Horrifying, I tell you, horrifying! ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/110 "2009-07-16T01:25:18Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Indeed, and it was recognized in my school and in the history my daughters took. What isn’t recognized, and certainly won’t be in Texas, was the crucial role deism played in the revolution. Jefferson especially was able to enumerate rights from the natural god, while disavowing the supposed link between the Christian God and the king. In Europe at the time (and even today, to some extent) the power of government comes from God. The United States was one of the first western nations (if not the first) where the power of government came from the people and their natural rights. That’s pretty crucial, and very inconvenient to those claiming we are a Christian nation. I’m not sure what role Deism, specifically, played in the founding. While the D of I can be said to be the product of a Deist (albeit of the monotheistic strain) it could just as well have been the product of common ground of devout religionists. I don’t think there is any way to determine this one way or the other at this point. A look at the personal beliefs of the actual founders would be helpful, though. As far as the latter part of your paragraph, you omit or gloss over an important distinction. A crucial difference between the U.S. and European nations was that while their _governments_ came from God, our _rights_ came from God. Our government was through the populace, and existed in order to secure and protect those natural God-given, unalienable rights. I think that, in combination with a less generous attribution to Deism (which I think is fair), argues well for this being founded as a Christian nation. One in which any religion may be practiced. But many states had officially established religions. This was fine with the founders. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/111 "2009-07-16T01:29:43Z")
[quote=“DanBlather, post:95, topic:503050”] I think we are straying from the point here. If we are to teach that Christianity is the basis for American exceptionalism, then we have one of two choices: 1. We were different from other countries of that time in that we were Christian. This is clearly not true. No, it is absolutely true. We were the only nation that saw the rights of man as flowing directly from our Creator. And that the king (government) was NOT the source of those rights. As **Voyager** already mentioned, the U.S. differed from European nations in that the governing was born of the people, not handed down from God. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/112 "2009-07-16T03:14:24Z")
[quote=“magellan01, post:111, topic:503050”] > [@DanBlather](#): > > I think we are straying from the point here. If we are to teach that Christianity is the basis for American exceptionalism, then we have one of two choices: > > 1. We were different from other countries of that time in that we were Christian. This is clearly not true. > > No, it is absolutely true. We were the only nation that saw the rights of man as flowing directly from our Creator. And that the king (government) was NOT the source of those rights. As **Voyager** already mentioned, the U.S. differed from European nations in that the governing was born of the people, not handed down from God. But the difference is not that we were Christian, but that we viewed that rights belonged to the people. You seem to say that in your post then contradict yourself. ETA: In other words, what differentiated the US from other countries was not their religious philosophy, but their political philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/113 "2009-07-16T04:04:56Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Indeed, and it was recognized in my school and in the history my daughters took. What isn’t recognized, and certainly won’t be in Texas, was the crucial role deism played in the revolution. Jefferson especially was able to enumerate rights from the natural god, while disavowing the supposed link between the Christian God and the king. In Europe at the time (and even today, to some extent) the power of government comes from God. The United States was one of the first western nations (if not the first) where the power of government came from the people and their natural rights. That’s pretty crucial, and very inconvenient to those claiming we are a Christian nation. Where do natural rights come from I wonder? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/114 "2009-07-16T04:40:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Where do natural rights come from I wonder? From the idea of a creator of all who/which has no favorites. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/115 "2009-07-16T04:41:40Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > From the idea of a creator of all who/which has no favorites. Sounds a lot like the Christian God. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/116 "2009-07-16T05:02:14Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Where do natural rights come from I wonder? Uhh, nature? Was that a trick question? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/117 "2009-07-16T05:06:42Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Uhh, nature? Was that a trick question? Really, nature creates rights? How do we discern the rights that nature provides us and why are so many other countries unable to perceive these natural rights that we so naturally deserve? I mean I know what Thomas Jefferson would say, he would say that they are provided by the Divine Creator, but that’s sort of an appeal to Natural Law, which is a very Christian notion. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/118 "2009-07-16T05:13:14Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Really, nature creates rights? How do we discern the rights that nature provides us and why are so many other countries unable to perceive these natural rights that we so naturally deserve? > > I mean I know what Thomas Jefferson would say, he would say that they are provided by the Divine Creator, but that’s sort of an appeal to Natural Law, which is a very Christian notion. It’s actually a very humanist notion. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/119 "2009-07-16T05:27:12Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > It’s actually a very humanist notion. That tells me a name of a philosophy but not from where these rights derive. Where do they come from? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050/120 "2009-07-16T05:34:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Where do natural rights come from I wonder? > [@](#): > > From the idea of a creator of all who/which has no favorites. > [@](#): > > Sounds a lot like the Christian God. But not like the author of American Exceptionalism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-culture-wars-new-front-u-s-history-classes-in-texas-wsj-article/503050.md?page=7)