# the cure - goth or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 18, 2002, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686 "2002-05-18T10:49:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bluddy\_bloodnut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@bluddy\_bloodnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bluddy_bloodnut)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/1 "2002-05-18T10:49:20Z")
i was wondering of there are any “goths” in SD who might be able to tell me their opinion if the cure is a true “goth” band. I have heard that they are and that they arent, but ive never talked to and “goths” about it, and im just curious. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/2 "2002-05-18T12:38:28Z")
Former goth here; it depends what era you’re talking about. **The Cure** went through several phases, and were never the “goth” epitomised by **Type-O Negative**. Basically, they were kind of the prototype for goth around the time of _Seventeen Seconds_, and _Pornography_. In the 80’s, goth was defined by a sensibility more than a sound. Most goths I knew listened to **The Cramps** , even though their rockabilly sound is miles from what most think of as “goth”. If you’re looking for the most influential goth band, it would have to be **Bauhaus**. To be honest, I have no idea what modern goths listen to. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/3 "2002-05-18T15:19:00Z")
**The Cure** lost their Goth license with _The 13th_ 😛 Personally, I think Robert Smith was doing his best work as the drummer for **Siouxsie and the Banshees** , although I do like _Galore_ and _Staring at the Sea_. ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/4 "2002-05-18T15:55:55Z")
I really wouldn’t consider them to be goth … They have their own thing going, much of which can be very slow and depressing, but I wouldn’t really say goth. Like **Grendel72** said, I think some of their earlier stuff can be considered so, but not since. When I think of 80’s goth, I think more of Bauhaus and Sisters of Mercy … not “Close To Me” (while I do think that this song is very cool). And _Disintigration_ is one of my all-time favorite albums, too! What reeeeeeeeaaaaaaalllllly bugs me is when people use Marilyn Manson as the epitome of goth. What the hell?! Even when I was in high school and liked Marilyn Manson (“Portrait” era), I always considered him theatrical heavy metal. Colin ---
**Author:** ![FallenAngel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@FallenAngel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FallenAngel)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/5 "2002-05-18T17:22:31Z")
Long time Goth boy checking in. The Cure is what I’ve always considered to be a “Goth affiliated” band. They overlap into the Goth arena in a lot of ways but are decided outside it as well. Kind of like the Charlie Daniels Band was affiliated with Southern Rock but remained, in actuality, a country band. I like more Cure stuff than a lot of “true” Goth, but then a lot of post-Sisters of Mercy Goth stuff is just canned marketing put in black clothes and makeup. **interface** , it’s been said in many places by many people, but thank you for once again reiterating that Marilyn isn’t Goth. I hate to see that low-rent dish rag associated with Goth. **Grendel** , if you ever get the chance, check out Genitorturers live. As a former/recovering Goth, you’ll probably dig them. You probably already know them, but they’re one of the modern acts that remain pretty popular inside the scene without crossing out much. Ditto for Switchblade Symphony (although they’re both classic and modern) and Black Tape for a Blue Girl, although I’m not terribly enthused about the new singer. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/6 "2002-05-18T17:35:09Z")
As an outsider looking in, I always thought that The Cure were a little posuer, especilaay Robert Smith. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/7 "2002-05-18T21:23:03Z")
**Fallen** , I’m really _over_ my goth phase now. My current favorite music is post rock/loungecore, which definitely shares a lot of traits with the goth that I still love (atmospheric, using instruments other than guitar, bass and drum), but I don’t think I’ve heard any decent _self-proclaimed_ goth music since the early 90’s. I still love **The Cure** and **Bauhaus** , though. ---
**Author:** ![Semp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Semp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Semp)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/8 "2002-05-19T00:41:31Z")
Well, consider that the Cure started out as something like a Buzzcocks knock-off, then did Joy Division-y post-punk, then had a Goth-ish phase (which I would limit to Faith and the Charlotte Sometimes single), but then started becoming a bit more unique in sound once Pornography came out. Pornography could be seen as Goth to some, but I think that’s primarily with the benefit of hindsight (I consider it uncatagorizible). And since then they seem to do whatever, whenever they like. Synthpop, guitar pop, dirgelike stuff, pseudo-goth, and ultimately going with repetitive claptrap on Bloodflowers. So, are the Cure goth? Once they were, then later they would do it as a lark when they felt like it. ---
**Author:** ![Kabbalah1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/977dab/32.png) [@Kabbalah1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kabbalah1976)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/9 "2012-12-21T08:32:13Z")
the cure rule so stfu GOTH KINGS! TRUE FAN HERE! thx loveugodbless tj kabbalah matthewshepard madonnalicious ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/10 "2012-12-21T08:41:12Z")
Odd, I was suspecting a December 2012 join date here. ---
**Author:** ![lost4life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@lost4life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lost4life)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/11 "2012-12-21T18:28:14Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Odd, I was suspecting a December 2012 join date here. For realsies! The zombie jokes are just too obvious, so I’ll pass. This did get me thinking about [this](http://rosebleed.awardspace.com/details_goth_interview.htm) interview I read years ago. Details magazine (it used to be more interesting) brought together all the so-called founders of goth, including Ian Asbury, Daniel Ash, Peter Murphy, Siouxie Sioux, Robert Smith and Marc Almond. Robert Smith stated: _People can say that the Cure were goths, but they’re lying. You can’t stylize history, and if the photos show you wearing the white face makeup and the accoutrements of goth, you’re a goth band. This won’t set the record straight, because it will still go on, but I know in my own heart what we have and haven’t been, which is all that matters to me._ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/12 "2012-12-21T20:23:18Z")
Wasn’t there a _South Park_ ep where a giant Barbara Streisand invaded the town and the kids had to conjure up a giant Robert Smith to slay her? That kind of stuff makes me roll over in pain laughing! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/13 "2012-12-21T21:13:54Z")
What about **Joy Division**? Do they ever get lopped into goth? I don’t know goth that well, but they have atmospheric similarities with them, even though I just think of them as post-punk. If Bauhaus is the epitome of goth, Joy Division sounds closer to it than the Cure does, although I remember the Cure being lopped in with goth back in the early 90s, though to me the Cure have always been a bit more poppy and New Wave (though I understand there’s a lot of overlap with all of these. I mean, for me the difference between post-punk and New Wave is not exactly well-defined, either. I tend to think of New Wave as post-punk with a stronger pop sensibility.) ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/14 "2012-12-21T21:58:08Z")
Joy Division is usually called “post-punk” which means first-wave punk fans who got a little more inventive musically and wrote depressing lyrics. A littler harsher than the stereotypical goth music, although I can hear overlaps with some Bauhaus. They’re an inspiration for goth and a lot of fan overlap is there because of the lyrics. Also, they’d show up on say, gothic compilations. Hanging yourself in your kitchen doesn’t hurt (musically). It’s a bit like saying Nirvana is/isn’t punk rock. Technically no, but grunge might not have existed without punk. In post-punk vs. New Wave, the synthesizers are very optional in the former, whereas they are often the centerpiece in NW. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/15 "2012-12-21T22:38:14Z")
Well, the synth thing is the stereotypical dividing line for what makes New Wave New Wave, but I don’t exactly agree with that. Like I consider the Pretenders New Wave, but they’re not really synthy. (I understand you said “often the centerpiece” not “always the centerpiece.”) But post-punk and New Wave are a fuzzy division. For me, it seems that New Wave is more melodic and pop in its songwriting approach, while post-punk tends to be a bit more experimental/“artsy” musically, with jagged rhythms, and “angular” guitar parts, and things like that. But there’s not always been a very clear line between the two, and a lot of what I consider post-punk would have been considered New Wave at one time. Like that first Pretenders album is very much what I think of as post-punk musically, but a bit more New Wave in its melodies. For me, Wire is kind of a good example. _Pink Flag_ is straight-up punk. _Chairs Missing_ is mostly post-punk. _154_ starts feeling a lot more New Wave. And _A Bell is a Cup Until It Is Struck_ going into clear New Wave territory. But that’s based on my subjective definition of differentiating post-punk and New Wave based on pop sensibility. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/16 "2012-12-21T23:35:20Z")
I don’t know the answer but all this reminds me of a hilarious interview I read once in which Morrissey denounced Robert Smith as a poseur, and claimed that he, Morrissey, was the one who was _really_ depressed. It was all tongue-in-cheek I am sure. (At least I _hope_ it was tongue-in-cheek.) ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/17 "2012-12-21T23:40:49Z")
You can never tell with that guy. I would not be surprised in the least if Morrissey turned out to be three monkeys standing on each others’ shoulders. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/18 "2012-12-23T20:37:50Z")
Just a slight nitpick, a decade late but nevermind that: Smith played _guitar_ in the Banshees, not drums. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/19 "2012-12-24T00:49:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Just a slight nitpick, a decade late but nevermind that: Smith played _guitar_ in the Banshees, not drums. I was wondering about that… ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686/20 "2012-12-24T01:04:53Z")
Something I learned from this thread, though, is that ten years ago, I used to sign my posts. Still don’t have an answer as to why, though. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cure-goth-or-not/109686.md?page=2)