# The curious bitter fruits of online dating **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 31, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486 "2010-03-31T19:11:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/61 "2010-04-04T18:57:51Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > You may have a point here, but I can’t understand you enough to see what it is. Either you are taking the sarcasm up another notch (and congrats on that) or the very concept of sarcasm escapes you. Either way, my job here is done. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/62 "2010-04-04T19:01:12Z")
move along; nothing to see here ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/63 "2010-04-04T19:01:37Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Until **billfish** comes back (which of course he’s under no obligation to do), I’ll just add that I am a ways beyond feeling sarcastic about this particular phase of life. I’m more about sketching out a kind of \*\*plausible dystopia \*\*- and then, hopefully, getting reactions as to whether there’s anything to it or not. I’d say its plausible in the sense it seems to me that a good fraction of the dating population thinks and acts “that” way. Whether it is remotely desirable, intelligent, practical, fair, moral, or whatever is a whole nother debate. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/64 "2010-04-04T19:04:18Z")
Ooookay. I take back the playing in traffic jibe, and I thank you for the clarification. I find it plausible in so far as it allows us to treat each other as instruments - interchangeable parts of a life or a ritual or a society. There is much about contemporary society that encourages us to use each other in an instrumental way, or makes the alternatives too costly, risky, or dangerous. I also believe it’s plausible that people - especially people who function well in groups - are more scared of anyone who does not function well in their group than of anyone who does. When we judge others, we do so first on belonging. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/65 "2010-04-04T19:14:09Z")
Never mind - cleared up while I was writing. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/66 "2010-04-04T21:17:05Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > She is not into you. > > People will part with you with no intention of getting together again. They just won’t come out and tell you. Yeah, I find this a bit shabby rather than polite. If someone gets in touch with you again and you don’t want to see them again, find a polite way of telling them. Wish them good luck. Being polite but direct is an act of consideration and respect. Just avoiding them until they get the message is disrespectful and inconsiderate. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/67 "2010-04-04T21:40:24Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > It’s funny, you folks talking about waiting a week to call/email as a matter of policy. Back when I was doing the on-line dating thing, my feeling was that if a guy couldn’t be arsed to at least email within a day or two after a first date, then regardless of whether or not he actually liked me, the whole business wasn’t as important to him as it was to me, and he was probably not a good candidate. > > Maybe it’s because I’m an older (54) woman, but to me, when email has been a primary means of contact, an email thank you note or other acknowledgement of having been on a date and enjoyed it ought to be sent within a day or two of the date. That doesn’t mean a request for a second date; just an acknowledgement of the first and an indication that there is some interest there in continuing. I don’t understand why this would be viewed as clingy or overpowering; to me, it’s just courtesy. Any woman who would be scared off by a simple “Thanks for having coffee/seeing a movie/whatever last night. I enjoyed it. Sincerely, John Doe” is WAY too skittish. Someone who waits a week to take thirty seconds to email when he’s really interested in me is either too busy or too much of a power-gamer for me. > > As for the OP, I’d have to say that I agree with the others that she probably just isn’t interested, or if she is, she’s playing games and you should run the other way. I also have to agree that calling someone at work is probably not a good idea until such time as a relationship is well-established. Good points. I tried [match.com](http://match.com) for a while and met some nice ladies but the chemistry never clicked. I always tried to remain polite and honest. One very nice lady and I are still friends even though the romance never kicked in. After a few dates I told her I liked her and would enjoy a friendship but that’s all I felt we could have. Then again I’m older and companionship with someone nice is a reward in itself if both people agree. I don’t have time or patience for games, especially from woman in my age group. If a woman didn’t return a couple of phone calls or emails, just out of being a decent polite person, I’d know what I needed to know about her. OTOH , don’t worry about it. Chemistry is a funny thing and if it wasn’t there for her move on. Don’t try to contact her again. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/68 "2010-04-04T21:59:22Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > You’re missing something important - maybe because you’re of an older generation. > > The point now is not courtesy. The point is demonstrating that you know, and can follow, unwritten codes of behavior. Life now is complicated enough that this is the only way people can engender a feeling of trust. > > “Power gaming” is not exactly what it is - but it _is_ gaming. Dating _is_ a game, and the significance of the game is that you show competence. If you don’t, or can’t, there is no point in playing. > > Thinking your personality, or anyone’s, will just naturally show through is a doubly losing proposition - first, because we are all such strangers now; second, because it ignores the game. Because we are all such strangers, the game is not just necessary; the game is _all there is_ to most relationships. If one breaks through, it is _because_ of the gameplaying, not in spite of it. > > The game is all we have to engender trust. Show competence, show that you sense and follow the codes, and maybe there will be an opportunity for the real you to connect. Without doing so, you have not earned that opportunity, and everyone you approach will know it and turn away. Well, I’m in my mid 50s but I call bullshit. It’s a game if you accept it as a game and treat it as such. Even in my 20s and 30s when I was dating a lot I appreciated honesty and a general lack of game playing. It’s honest to say “I just want to get laid and have fun without any real commitment” and then the other person can decide if that’s okay with them and for how long. I agree that people’s actions reveal who they really are so don’t be fooled by words. Take it slow and get to know someone. Make that and forming a friendship a priority over romance or any life partner thing. Treat them with respect and consideration and expect the same. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/69 "2010-04-04T22:09:00Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Ooookay. I take back the playing in traffic jibe, and I thank you for the clarification. > > . No problem. I wasnt trying to start a fight or anything either. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/70 "2010-04-04T23:03:01Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Well, I’m in my mid 50s but I call bullshit. It’s a game if you accept it as a game and treat it as such. Even in my 20s and 30s when I was dating a lot I appreciated honesty and a general lack of game playing. But how much time has gone by? Is honesty possible anymore _without_ first getting past the ritual of gameplaying? Hasn’t the game become less about being a shrewd and jaded individual, and more about getting by in a shrewd and jaded world? (I honestly don’t know. I can’t play the game because I can’t crack the code. It’s all sickening and frustrating to me. I have been on exactly one date in 11 years, and it was a nice one, just not an experience I’d care to repeat _ad nauseam,_ which is what it takes.) > [@](#): > > I agree that people’s actions reveal who they really are so don’t be fooled by words. Take it slow and get to know someone. Make that and forming a friendship a priority over romance or any life partner thing. Treat them with respect and consideration and expect the same. That just sounds too honest and down-to-earth to be of any value in a world of strangers. And I believe that in dating as it exists today, we are _all_ strangers. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/71 "2010-04-05T05:18:23Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > How old are you? Was that directed at me? I’m 47 now; I was 43 when I met my wife: in 2005. Not so many years ago that dating was very different than today. As I said, we were introduced via an acquaintaince, which greatly reduced the stranger problem you talk about. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/72 "2010-04-05T12:15:22Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > But how much time has gone by? Is honesty possible anymore _without_ first getting past the ritual of gameplaying? Hasn’t the game become less about being a shrewd and jaded individual, and more about getting by in a shrewd and jaded world? Yes, honesty is possible from the get go. That doesn’t mean you reveal everything in the first two or three dates. There’s no need to. You’re finding out if you like each other. Do you enjoy some of the same things, talking to each other? How is the physical attraction? No need for dishonesty. > [@](#): > > (I honestly don’t know. I can’t play the game because I can’t crack the code. It’s all sickening and frustrating to me. I have been on exactly one date in 11 years, and it was a nice one, just not an experience I’d care to repeat _ad nauseam,_ which is what it takes.) I repeat. It’s only a game if you accept it as one and treat it as one. > [@](#): > > That just sounds too honest and down-to-earth to be of any value in a world of strangers. And I believe that in dating as it exists today, we are _all_ strangers. It’s the method of making a stranger into an acquaintance and then a friend. Perhaps more. Considering what you just revealed about one date in 11 years then “dating as it exists today” isn’t a term you should use much. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/73 "2010-04-05T13:41:48Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > (I honestly don’t know. I can’t play the game because I can’t crack the code. It’s all sickening and frustrating to me. I have been on exactly one date in 11 years, and it was a nice one, just not an experience I’d care to repeat _ad nauseam,_ which is what it takes.) You’re struggling because you keep telling yourself it’s a game that takes special Jedi skills to beat. But if this was the case, most people would be single and/or celibate, because few people are smart enough to be at a Jedi level at anything. You come across like a kid who thinks “Math is too hard!” and just resigns himself to the bottom of the remedial class rather than actually try to master the subject. Can you not see why this attitude is unattractive? Your life is a self-fulfilling prophecy of jaded disappointment. I say this as a woman he’s also sick and tired of dating. The challenge is not knowing the right tricks to “win”; it’s finding a person that clicks with you and vice versa. This is hard for a lot of people, even those who are savvy and confident. If you go on a date and it doesn’t work out, odds are it’s not because you called her back too soon or scared her off with compliments. Nine times out of ten it’s _not_ because you broke some “rule”. It’s more than likely because she’s just not that into you. Why? Who knows? You could just as easily blame it on biology as you could on anything else. Blaming it on “the game” just looks like a ego-sparing coping strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/74 "2010-04-05T13:59:02Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > You’re missing something important - maybe because you’re of an older generation. > > The point now is not courtesy. The point is demonstrating that you know, and can follow, unwritten codes of behavior. Life now is complicated enough that this is the only way people can engender a feeling of trust. > > “Power gaming” is not exactly what it is - but it _is_ gaming. Dating _is_ a game, and the significance of the game is that you show competence. If you don’t, or can’t, there is no point in playing. > > Thinking your personality, or anyone’s, will just naturally show through is a doubly losing proposition - first, because we are all such strangers now; second, because it ignores the game. Because we are all such strangers, the game is not just necessary; the game is _all there is_ to most relationships. If one breaks through, it is _because_ of the gameplaying, not in spite of it. > > The game is all we have to engender trust. Show competence, show that you sense and follow the codes, and maybe there will be an opportunity for the real you to connect. Without doing so, you have not earned that opportunity, and everyone you approach will know it and turn away. I wonder how often you date, and how happy you are with the results of your dating, given this mindset. I suspect the answer to one of those questions, if not to both, is, “Not much.” I’m in my forties, and although I had a couple of computer-aided relationships, I can’t say I’m any kind of online dating veteran. But I absolutely reject this notion of yours. ---
**Author:** ![ReticulatingSplines](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@ReticulatingSplines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ReticulatingSplines)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/75 "2010-04-05T15:53:19Z")
I don’t understand why you folks are blasting Beware of Doug. It seems that all he’s saying is that dating is a game inasmuch as all social interactions are a game. And he’s right. There are tacit rules that govern our social interactions. It’s kind of like in A Beautiful Mind, where Russell Crowe says something like, “Essentially, we’re talking about fluid exchange, right?” and the woman slaps him. How’s that for honesty and directness? Is that romantic? No, because that’s just not what you do, no matter how true it is at heart. Similarly, you have to play coy in a job interview and not reveal that you’re only there because nobody else will pay you and you’re tired of eating ramen every day. When you’re dating a girl you really like, of course you want to spend every waking moment with her. But obviously, you don’t tell her that, even though you both probably know and (perhaps) feel the same way. I don’t understand how anyone can argue that this isn’t an elaborate game (or dance, whatever you want to call it). Also, while I respect the diversity of personal perspectives, I’m going to be completely honest–I’m in my twenties and I have NEVER once heard a girl say that she refused to go out with a guy again because he didn’t call or e-mail in 2 days, but I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard them say that they refused to go out again because he contacted her too soon and too frequently. What’s too soon, and what’s too much? I don’t know. But some women have very sensitive “stalker” radar, and without knowing, it’s better to contact her too little than too much. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/76 "2010-04-05T16:21:52Z")
> [@ReticulatingSplines](#): > > I don’t understand why you folks are blasting Beware of Doug. I don’t exactly feel blasted. Then again, I’m tough enough on myself that it’s easier to hear coming from others (as long as they’re not insinuating that I should resign myself to a life of bitterness; _that_ I refuse to tolerate.) > [@](#): > > It seems that all he’s saying is that dating is a game inasmuch as all social interactions are a game. And he’s right. There are tacit rules that govern our social interactions. It’s kind of like in A Beautiful Mind, where Russell Crowe says something like, “Essentially, we’re talking about fluid exchange, right?” and the woman slaps him. How’s that for honesty and directness? Is that romantic? No, because that’s just not what you do, no matter how true it is at heart. Ironically enough, being romantic would be just as much of a mistake today. > [@](#): > > Similarly, you have to play coy in a job interview and not reveal that you’re only there because nobody else will pay you and you’re tired of eating ramen every day. This is the clincher, and it is next to impossible for some of us. The game aspects of dating (for me, going back 20+ years now) - the need to pretend; the need to stop feeling alone or entertaining romantic notions; the need to force yourself through it feeling only the fear, frustration and despair - these things, I cannot face. That’s why I can’t imagine dating often enough to make it mean anything good in my life. You mention job interviewing. Tellingly perhaps, I’ve never gotten a job I had to interview cold for. It’s either been referrals or “get lost.” I’m not unimpressive in person, but I have trouble playing games - _especially_ when it’s the socially expected thing to do - and people notice. I can’t _pretend_ not to care about anything in life; all I know how to do is stop caring, and that’s got its own price (too high). ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/77 "2010-04-05T16:27:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I absolutely reject this notion of yours. Fine, but do you care to explain why? (If you’re about to say “your evident lack of meaningful experience,” kindly refrain from replying at all. Simple answers to complicated problems are usually insulting.) ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/78 "2010-04-05T16:35:29Z")
I wish I could see you interacting with women, **Doug** , and give you some feedback. I have a feeling you’re right next door to interacting like a normal guy, but you’re missing it by _that_ much. I don’t agree that it’s all a game, but there is certainly an element of unwritten code to online dating. I don’t think you can have a hard-and-fast rule about when to call again; my husband called me the next day after we met, and left a message. He’s no smooth Casanova; he was just interested, and he said so. I was also interested, so I appreciated his call so quickly and not leaving me hanging. If you’re a guy who wants to call the next day, you need to find a woman who wants to get a call the next day - it really isn’t more complicated than that. ---
**Author:** ![ReticulatingSplines](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@ReticulatingSplines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ReticulatingSplines)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/79 "2010-04-05T16:51:59Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > I don’t exactly feel blasted. Then again, I’m tough enough on myself that it’s easier to hear coming from others (as long as they’re not insinuating that I should resign myself to a life of bitterness; _that_ I refuse to tolerate.) Fair enough, though I thought it was patently unfair that people myopically pointed solely at the tone of your message board posts as the reason you haven’t dated much. That sort of distills dating success and failure down to nothing but your attitude, which is kind of a cycloptic view (I mean, maybe you were horribly disfigured in a fire), and also assumes that you must act exactly in real life the way you do on an Internet message board. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486/80 "2010-04-05T17:13:26Z")
Actually, back in my internet dating days, I, a woman, would generally send an email saying ‘thank you’ pretty much immediately after a first date. If I was definitely not interested, I would make it clear as kindly as possible (something along the lines of “the spark of magic just isn’t there for me”). If I was interested, I would either leave it as ‘thank you’ or put something very undemanding in it, along the lines of “I’d enjoy seeing you again sometime.” A response email saying ‘I enjoyed myself too’ sent within a couple of days was what I would expect back. If my email was ignored for two days or more, and the guy came back saying ‘sorry it took me so long to get back to you, but thus-and-so came up and I couldn’t,’ that was fine. But no email response within a couple of days, and no reference to the length of time it took when, sometime in the future, the guy finally did respond was pretty much an indication to me that he either wasn’t that in to me or he wasn’t that in to dating, period, probably the former. Either way, it was a definite turn-off. I mean, a response would take thirty seconds and cost nothing, so a lack of response is in itself an action as far as I’m concerned. I mean, it’s one thing to bombard a woman with dozens of emails or swear eternal love, or send her roses every day for a week, or start talking about the beautiful children she’ll have for him. I can understand a woman being scared off by that. But I’ve never known a woman who actually experienced that; certainly I didn’t, and I didn’t lack for male attention in my time. But I think you can show a courteous, measured interest without scaring most women off. A woman who would be scared off by a quick email saying “Thanks. I had a good time.” a day or two after a first date probably has either had a very bad experience in her past and carries the baggage rather heavily, or is so self-enamored that she thinks anyone who shakes her hand in greeting is hitting on her. Admittedly, I’m in my fifties and haven’t dated in over five years. But I have trouble believing that mores have changed that much, even if I am thirty years older than most people who are experiencing these problems right now. As far as I can tell, **Torpor Beast** (the OP) did everything right except to call her at work, which is a totally separate issue related to work etiquette, not dating etiquette per se. And it seems to me that his date, while taking a less open stance than I would have, has communicated fairly clearly that she’s not interested, which sucks for **TB** , but there it is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-curious-bitter-fruits-of-online-dating/534486.md?page=5)