# The current state of Israel **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114 "2004-07-01T21:18:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/21 "2004-07-05T21:52:45Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > No, but what makes a group of people “deserving of their own” state? Clearly, this is a policy that can not be realized in most places, and for most people would be considered borderline racist and segregationist. What makes the Jews special and deserving of a state? That’s the point: Jews aren’t special and they deserve a state as much as the French have France, the Germans have Germany, the Turkish have Turkey and so forth. I think the Palestinians should have their own state as well. This is does not mean that any state should deny citizenship to anyone on the basis of ethnicity or that any state should be exclusively for a certain race; it’s just a statement that most ethnicities occupy specific states. It’s not at all “borderline racist” or “segregationalist.” ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/22 "2004-07-05T22:04:20Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > That’s the point: Jews aren’t special and they deserve a state as much as the French have France, the Germans have Germany, the Turkish have Turkey and so forth. I think the Palestinians should have their own state as well. This is does not mean that any state should deny citizenship to anyone on the basis of ethnicity or that any state should be exclusively for a certain race; it’s just a statement that most ethnicities occupy specific states. It’s not at all “borderline racist” or “segregationalist.” So you support Kurdistan and a partitioned 3-state Iraq? Frence and German are nationalities, not ethnicities. O\_o The French don’t have France because they are a distinct ethnic group who needs a homeland, they are French because they are a bunch of people who agree to live under one government. That is DISTINCTLY different than the Kurdish or Israeli situations. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/23 "2004-07-05T22:13:31Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > Jews aren’t special and they deserve a state as much as the French have France, the Germans have Germany, the Turkish have Turkey and so forth. Hardly analogous. It’s not as if French people from all over the world decided to form a homeland in Western Europe. The French are French because of a common language, common customs, etc. They have those things in common because they live in the same place. When they move away, their “French-ness” tends to start to disappear, particularly after a generation or two have come and gone. The Jewish people, on the other hand, have a common religion (speaking _very_ broadly - lots of internal disagreement!), but in many cases, have almost nothing else in common with other Jews, in what we think of as “ethnic” terms. Jews from, say, Poland have very little in common with Jews from Ethiopia, beyond their core beliefs. Now that the state of Israel has been around for 55+ years, of course, we’re seeing the development of a new ethnic group: Israelis. They are starting to share language, customs, etc., just like the French, the Germans, and so on, for the same reason - they all live in the same place. So, the question of who deserves a state gets a little murky. Before 1948, there was no such thing as an Israeli. Now that there is, do they deserve their own state (at the expense of large number of the folks who’ve been living there for centuries)? I don’t pretend to know the answer. I’m just saying that citing ethnicity or religion or race (if such a thing even exists) as a justification for nationhood is an approach fraught with problems. ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/24 "2004-07-05T22:15:29Z")
> [@](#): > > In 1975, the UN General Assembly adopted a resolution slandering Zionism by equating it with racism. Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish people, which holds that Jews, like any other nation, are entitled to a homeland. > > History has demonstrated the need to ensure Jewish security through a national homeland. Zionism recognizes that Jewishness is defined by shared origin, religion, culture and history. > > The realization of the Zionist dream is exemplified by more than four million Jews, from more than 100 countries, including darkskinned Jews from Ethiopia, Yemen and India, who are Israeli citizens. Approximately 1,000,000 Muslim and Christian Arabs, Druze, Baha’is, Circassians and other ethnic groups also are represented in Israel’s population. > > Many Christians have traditionally supported the goals and ideals of Zionism. Israel’s open and democratic character and its scrupulous protection of the religious and political rights of Christians and Muslims rebut the charge of exclusivity. > > The Arab states define citizenship strictly by native parentage. It is almost impossible to become a naturalized citizen in many Arab states, especially Algeria, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Several Arab nations have laws that facilitate the naturalization of foreign Arabs, with the specific exception of Palestinians. Jordan, on the other hand, instituted its own “law of return” in 1954, according citizenship to all former residents of Palestine, except for Jews. > > The presence of thousands of black Jews in Israel is the best refutation of the calumny against Zionism. In a series of historic airlifts, labeled Moses (1984), Joshua (1985) and Solomon (1991), Israel rescued almost 42,000 members of the ancient Ethiopian Jewish community. -from The Religious-Secular Conflict in Israel, by Shlomo Sharan and Ervin Birnbaum Zionism, as manifested in a nationalist movement to establish and defend a Jewish homeland in the state of Israel, can be many things depending on how you look at it. I’m not saying that Zionism is right or wrong, or whether it is feasible or not, or whether or not people acting in its name have committed wrongdoing. But I don’t think it’s accurate to describe it as “racist,” because it’s not opposed to any particular race. As illustrated in the quote above, the ‘Jewish People’ themselves comprise many different races. I used the term ‘anti-Semitism’ before, but I regret the use of it and I have to admit that I don’t like that term because it implies racial connotations when I do not wish to bring any up. ‘Anti-Jewish’ is a far more appropriate phrase. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/25 "2004-07-05T22:17:16Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > So you support Kurdistan and a partitioned 3-state Iraq? If the Kurds want their own state, why shouldn’t they get it? > [@](#): > > Frence and German are nationalities, not ethnicities. O\_o The French don’t have France because they are a distinct ethnic group who needs a homeland, they are French because they are a bunch of people who agree to live under one government. That is DISTINCTLY different than the Kurdish or Israeli situations. French adj. 1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of France or its people or culture. 2. Of or relating to the French language. German adj. 1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of Germany or its people. 2. Of or relating to the German language. France and Germany are both nationalities and ethnicities. The majorities of both countries share a common culture. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/26 "2004-07-05T22:20:28Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > If the Kurds want their own state, why shouldn’t they get it? Because it could start WWIII? > [@](#): > > French > adj. > > 1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of France or its people or culture. > > France and Germany are both nationalities and ethnicities. The majorities of both countries share a common culture. **Early Out** did a better job of defining the differences than I did. For that matter, you should be happy to know that France and Germany are hardly homogenous ethnic groupings. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/27 "2004-07-05T22:48:39Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > ‘Anti-Jewish’ is a far more appropriate phrase. Same problem. “Anti-Zionist” means only “anti-zionist,” and nothing else. It’s perfectly possible to be pro-Jewish and anti-Zionist (ask the Hassidim). “Semitic,” “Jewish,” and “Zionist” each describe something different. In some cases, they overlap (there are, of course, semitic, Jewish zionists), but it’s only a partial correlation. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/28 "2004-07-05T23:14:13Z")
> [@Early Out](#): > > The Jewish people, on the other hand, have a common religion (speaking _very_ broadly - lots of internal disagreement!), but in many cases, have almost nothing else in common with other Jews, in what we think of as “ethnic” terms. Jews from, say, Poland have very little in common with Jews from Ethiopia, beyond their core beliefs. But as a result of the religion (and its rules regarding marriage) the Jews have remained a distinct group. And certain traditions are common to all Jews as a result of an originally shared religion. Of course, since the diaspora, Jews living next to other groups have acquired some of their customs, but this has largely involved acculturation rather than assimilation. Obviously the establishment of a Jewish state has radically changed the situation by providing a state and during Israel’s existence the various cultures have probably begun to mix, but there was clearly such a thing as a Jewish people before Israel (for example, there was a distinct group of Ethiopian Jews). > [@](#): > > Before 1948, there was no such thing as an Israeli. Now that there is, do they deserve their own state (at the expense of large number of the folks who’ve been living there for centuries)? Following that logic, one could argue that Israel shouldn’t have been established but, now that it has, it should not be dismantled. > [@Zagadka](#): > > For that matter, you should be happy to know that France and Germany are hardly homogenous ethnic groupings. I know. That’s why I said that the majorities of both countries had a shared culture. > [@](#): > > Because it could start WWIII? Well my argument is rooted in the principle of self-determination. As for inciting WWIII, I don’t know, would it? ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/29 "2004-07-05T23:27:49Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > Following that logic, one could argue that Israel shouldn’t have been established but, now that it has, it should not be dismantled. That’s actually pretty much where I come down on the issue. I think that allowing the state of Israel to be created in the first place was a monumental blunder by the western powers, but now that it’s there, and a genuine national identity has been created, dismantling it isn’t a realistic option. By the same logic, of course, allowing Israel to expand into the West Bank and Gaza is indefensible - it can only make a bad situation worse. ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/30 "2004-07-06T00:29:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Same problem. “Anti-Zionist” means only “anti-zionist,” and nothing else. It’s perfectly possible to be pro-Jewish and anti-Zionist (ask the Hassidim). “Semitic,” “Jewish,” and “Zionist” each describe something different. In some cases, they overlap (there are, of course, semitic, Jewish zionists), but it’s only a partial correlation. Sure. Really, though I should have elaborated. Let me do so now: Of course one can be Jewish and be anti-Zionist because being Jewish is not just a religious matter; I consider myself Jewish because my mother is Jewish. I eat pork and shrimp and cheeseburgers and don’t have sidelocks and hardly ever keep the Sabbath, etc etc etc, but I’m still technically Jewish. I said being anti-Zionist goes against the essence of the Jewish RELIGION, which I still stand firm on though I’m not militant about it and am not here to kick and scream in defense of the State of Israel. I think that the Jewish religion is centered around the concept of a Jewish Israel, around the Temple of Jerusalem, and the idea that the Jewish people will return to the geographical location of Israel. A reading of the Torah will dissipate any doubt in one’s mind about said return (known in Hebrew as an ‘Aliyah,’ not to be confused with the late R&B singer.) Of course plenty of people are Zionists without being religious, or religious without being Zionist, or Jewish without being religious, or Zionist without even being Jewish. The hassidic Jews being spoken of here are widely regarded among other hassidim as being horses’ asses. As for the concept of anti-Semitic (or as I prefer saying and should have earlier, anti-Jewish,) I was referring to the strategy of blaming problems on the Jews. This concept, of Jewish scapegoating, has now unfortunately been transfered by a lot of anti-Semites to Israel, and now it’s even more convenient because people can say “I’m not anti-Jewish, just anti-Zionist,” when in reality they are blaming Israel for the same things that earlier anti-Semites just plain blamed on the Jews. I’m not trying to sling mud at anyone though; I referred to that argument as being anti-Jewish, not any specific person. I’m sorry if my remarks were taken out of context. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/31 "2004-07-06T00:52:50Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > The hassidic Jews being spoken of here are widely regarded among other hassidim as being horses’ asses. If by that you are suggesting that the Hassidic dissenters are few in number, I’m not sure that’s accurate. For one thing, there are so few Hassidic Jews in general that when the Satmar Jews voice their opposition to Israel, the Chabad Jews don’t exactly outnumber them when they disagree (in support of Israel). ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/32 "2004-07-06T01:31:41Z")
As the high commissioner for the united semitic peoples kemalist front, I will venture into these very muddied waters. Does a “jewish” state mean one defined by religion (If I forget thee, o jerusalem, yada yada…)? If so, then full membership is available at the option of the convert.(yeah, right. tell that the the Kach). If ethnicity, we have the embarassing semitic parallels in the tribes competing for dominance over this particular scrap of desert. Indeed, the very fount of religious sanction runs to Abraham and his children. Including, I think, Ishmael. Why is one state running from the Jordan to the Med. WHERE NO ONE IS SPECIAL ON ACCOUNT OF WHICH VERSION OF YAHWEH THEY THANK WHEN THEY CUT OFF THE FRONT OF THEIR DICK\* A PROBLEM? \*Stay tuned for an exciting anti-male-mutilation thread… ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/33 "2004-07-06T01:53:34Z")
Excuse me, o mighty Alaric the Goth, but what in the _hell_ are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/34 "2004-07-06T02:21:21Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > Excuse me, o mighty Alaric the Goth, but what in the _hell_ are you talking about? Oh, good, I thought it was just me, failing to grasp some very meaningful allusions. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/35 "2004-07-06T02:34:05Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I’m not a big fan of Israel, but I think the OP has got some facts wrong. > > “Palestinians” are generally not Israeli citizens, so it should be no surprise that most of them are unrepresented in the Israeli goverenment. I would suspect it’s precisely the reason why Israel is compared to South-Africa, where black people were suppossed not to be citizens of South-Africa but of the Bantoustans. > [@](#): > > There certainly are Israeli Arabs who make up something like 20% of the population. But lumping them in with “Palestinians” makes no sense. Not obvious at all. What would be the opinion of these people on the issue? Would arab Israelis and Palestinians accept or support being “lumped together”? If they would, then it makes a lot of sense. You couldn’t refuse to “lump them together” on the basis that Israeli law give to one category a status denied to the second category, is these people think this separation is arbitrary. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/36 "2004-07-06T02:39:18Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > As the high commissioner for the united semitic peoples kemalist front… The what, now? ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/37 "2004-07-06T02:43:23Z")
You’d think someone naming himself after a poweful and influential historical figure would have something slightly more mature to talk about than "CUT OFF THE FRONT OF THEIR DICK!!’ ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/38 "2004-07-06T02:46:36Z")
> [@Early Out](#): > > Oh, good, I thought it was just me, failing to grasp some very meaningful allusions. where to begin?.. I fwas nibbling around the edges of deconstructing the peculiar situation in which the oppression of one semitic people by another semitic people (or askenazic/semitic, if you prefer) gives rise to a complaint by sp#2 that criticism of their semite on semite violence is antisemitic. (I actually had not been aware that a secular one-state solution was on the table in 48). My referance to a “kemalist” front is an homage to attaturk; I believe that any politician who utters the word “god” in public should be instantly cashiered. More particularly, I believe that it is utterly and irretrievably wicked to have any public benefit whatsoever turn on the presence or absence of religious affiliation. Hence, the mandate: you can’t be special because of your religion. Not specially bad, not specially good. not special. On the real estate squabble itself, since the only basis for making jerusalem, israel and not jerusalem pennsylvania the capital of this restored “jewish state”, is the purported grant deed (signed?) from one Y. Ahweh, (aka adonai) running to the heirs of Abraham, I was expressing my puzzlement at the exclusion (apparently) of the heirs of the elder brother from this entitlement. This fraternal cupidity squares the ethnicity vs. religion circle, since racists focus on the ethnic markings whereas Israeli fascists (not all, just the Kahanists and their ilk) purport to focus on the religiouis differences but frame them in a context that betrays the real thrust, since the disabilities that burden christian palestinians are no different from those imposed on muslim palestinians. As for my continuing beef about the motherfucker who cut off a piece of my tiny baby dick, what can you say? They didn’t even save it for me to bury. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/39 "2004-07-06T02:50:31Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > You’d think someone naming himself after a poweful and influential historical figure would have something slightly more mature to talk about than "CUT OFF THE FRONT OF THEIR DICK!!’ Well, I’m glad you still have yours! It’s easy for YOU to talk. (I think it would be universally considered child abuse to snip off a little of some unnecessary skin anywhere else–earlobe , for instance–and it says VOLUMES about a profoundly sick view of human nature that we consider it ok, cause it’s just his dick…) ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114/40 "2004-07-06T02:57:19Z")
> [@Johnny Bravo](#): > > The what, now? Unelected, but what the fuck, no one else has come forward. The united semitic peoples (that would be jews and arabs) front, kemalist because it is irrevocably hostile to any religious influence in politics whatsoever, is very small. It might just be me and Noam, and I’m not sure Noam knows about the front. Benny Morris was a member, but we threw him out since his latest writings. The position of the USPKF is that the Jews already have a homeland–it’s in Boro Park. Likewise, the muslims have a homeland–Atlantic Avenue. Leave Israel/Palestine alone. There the united semitic people will live in secular bliss. (it’s taking longer than we thought…) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-current-state-of-israel/253114.md?page=3)