# The Da Vinci Contention - Was it (and if not, is it now) his surname? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902 "2014-05-21T06:12:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/21 "2014-05-21T12:43:32Z")
I actually think this question has a factual answer. The tax records of Florence seem to have recorded particular names as “family names” which were hereditary surnames. In the 1427 record, only a fraction of people have them (including, as I noted, one ‘da Vinci’.) I can find discussion of Piero, Leonardo and other family members being recorded in later tax records. So that would answer the question, but the actual records aren’t online (and I doubt I could read them or find anyting in them if they were). Still, I think there is a factual answer here. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/22 "2014-05-21T12:55:11Z")
Dan Brown uses “Da Vinci.” Therefore, I will not… ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/23 "2014-05-21T13:08:26Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Dan Brown uses “Da Vinci.” > > Therefore, I will not… Dan brown also uses all the other words in your post. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/24 "2014-05-21T13:48:17Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I actually think this question has a factual answer. The tax records of Florence seem to have recorded particular names as “family names” which were hereditary surnames. In the 1427 record, only a fraction of people have them (including, as I noted, one ‘da Vinci’.) I can find discussion of Piero, Leonardo and other family members being recorded in later tax records. So that would answer the question, but the actual records aren’t online (and I doubt I could read them or find anyting in them if they were). > > Still, I think there is a factual answer here. Got it. Using an online database of [Florentine records from the 15th century](http://cds.library.brown.edu/projects/tratte/search/personinfo.php). Both Da Vinci’s grandfather and father listed “Da Vinci” as a family name. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/25 "2014-05-21T13:57:03Z")
If that’s correct, it’s a big deal. I didn’t have a chance to do the search myself - are you sure it isn’t a modern force-fitting of the record? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/26 "2014-05-21T14:12:46Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > If that’s correct, it’s a big deal. I didn’t have a chance to do the search myself - are you sure it isn’t a modern force-fitting of the record? Its not a force fitting, since many entries don’t have surnames listed. The guy who built the database went through the original records by hand to fill the fields. There’s a fairly lengthy description of surnames in the record, with discussion of how he decided which entries had toponymic surnames and which were just “place of origin” entries. Its kind of hard to follow, but in anycase, he seems to have put some effort into separating the two cases. It also appears that by Leonardo’s time, while not all Florentines had family names, most office holders did. So given that he came from a line of minor Florentine officials, and his extended family all called themselves “da Vinci”, it sounds like it would be strange if they didn’t consider that a family name. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/27 "2014-05-21T16:06:24Z")
That’s really awesome **Simplicio** - nice work! Is there any way to link directly to the search result? - I couldn’t quite work out how to use the search itself (well, I thought I could, but I found nothing). ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/28 "2014-05-21T17:13:12Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > That’s really awesome **Simplicio** - nice work! > > Is there any way to link directly to the search result? - I couldn’t quite work out how to use the search itself (well, I thought I could, but I found nothing). [Try here?](http://cds.library.brown.edu/projects/tratte/search/personinfo.php?whichSeries=Tre+Maggiori+and+Guilds+and+Births&referred=yes&screen=2&rawquery=SELECT+COM1%2C+NAME1%2C+NAME2%2C+NAME3%2C+NAME4%2C+SURNAM1%2C+OCNAME%2C+YDRAW%2C+SER%2C+OFFICE%2C+RDRAW%2C+RECKEY+FROM+tratte+WHERE++NAME1+%3D+%27PIERO%27+AND+NAME2+%3D+%27ANTONIO%27+AND+SURNAM1+%3D+%27DAVINCI%27++ORDER+by+NAME1%2C+NAME2%2C+SURNAM1%2C+YDRAW+LIMIT+DAVINCI) Looking at it again, its actually Leo’s father and eldest brother, not grandfather like I said before. There’s also a birth-record for the father along with the election records. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/29 "2014-05-21T17:21:54Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > [Try here?](http://cds.library.brown.edu/projects/tratte/search/personinfo.php?whichSeries=Tre+Maggiori+and+Guilds+and+Births&referred=yes&screen=2&rawquery=SELECT+COM1%2C+NAME1%2C+NAME2%2C+NAME3%2C+NAME4%2C+SURNAM1%2C+OCNAME%2C+YDRAW%2C+SER%2C+OFFICE%2C+RDRAW%2C+RECKEY+FROM+tratte+WHERE++NAME1+%3D+%27PIERO%27+AND+NAME2+%3D+%27ANTONIO%27+AND+SURNAM1+%3D+%27DAVINCI%27++ORDER+by+NAME1%2C+NAME2%2C+SURNAM1%2C+YDRAW+LIMIT+DAVINCI) That wasn’t quite right. [Try this one?](http://cds.library.brown.edu/projects/tratte/search/personinfo.php?referred=yes&rawquery=SELECT+COM1%2C+NAME1%2C+NAME2%2C+NAME3%2C+NAME4%2C+SURNAM1%2C+OCNAME%2C+YDRAW%2C+SER%2C+OFFICE%2C+RDRAW%2C+RECKEY+FROM+tratte+WHERE++SURNAM1+%3D+%27DAVINCI%27+++LIMIT+1000%09++++) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/30 "2014-05-21T17:29:16Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I got out my time machine and went back to 1500 to ask him what his surname was. He said “Fuck that! Why didn’t you bring me a smart phone?” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/31 "2014-05-21T18:17:32Z")
Actually, it’s “DiCaprio.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/32 "2014-05-21T19:21:45Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > It also appears that by Leonardo’s time, while not all Florentines had family names, most office holders did. So given that he came from a line of minor Florentine officials, and his extended family all called themselves “da Vinci”, it sounds like it would be strange if they didn’t consider that a family name. So they were early adopters. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/33 "2014-05-21T20:49:15Z")
Thanks once again **Simplicio** - it really looks as though this is a good and proper slapdown of the pedantry on this particular issue. > [@](#): > > **From [A Note on Names](http://cds.library.brown.edu/projects/tratte/doc/NN-Names.html)**: > In coding the data, it was often difficult to distinguish between patronymics and established surnames, not so much for the great casate that appear frequently (Stozzi, Medici, Albizzi, and the like) as among more peripheral families, and we have been careful not to make patronymics into surnames in cases that were not clear. Thus not all individuals who may have had a surname appear with a surname in the data file. ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/34 "2014-05-21T23:05:10Z")
It’s been my understanding (in Renaissance art history, anyway) that in 15th century Florence (and most other places in Italy), surnames were fashionable for noble families (or family houses that aspired to nobility)–most artists were from working class families, and thus generally didn’t have surnames. Patronymics were used simply to distinguish individuals with the same Christian name, although certain individuals became so famous that patronymics aren’t needed. So, to keep with the theme of famous Renaissance artists/Ninja Turtles, we speak of Raphael, Michelangelo, and Donatello, rather than (respectively) of “Sanzio,” “Buonarroti,” and “di Niccolo di Betto Bardi.” The same convention is applied to Leonardo da Vinci, whom (in art history, anyway) is referred to simply as “Leonardo.” I can’t really think of any other Renaissance artists named “Leonardo,” so there’s little risk of confusion if one leaves out the patronymic of “da Vinci” (though there was also an artist named “Pierino da Vinci,” who was actually the nephew of Leonardo… but I digress). However, this usage (of calling an individual by their Christian name alone) is based on 15th-16th century Italian conventions, which weren’t always consistent. “Michelangelo” as a name and a person is an interesting example of this inconsistency. THE Michelangelo–the guy who painted the Sistine Chapel ceiling, of course–was unlike most of his artistic peers in the fact that he could claim noble ancestry, so you could make a case for calling him “Buonarotti” as a surname, instead of simply “Michelangelo.” But by convention, he became known as just “Michelangelo,” of such fame that no patronymic or (in his case) surname was needed to distinguish him from anyone else named Michelangelo. Funny thing is, by the end of the sixteenth century, another artist called Michelangelo became active in Rome–his name was Michelangelo Merisi (like Michelangelo Buonarroti, this Michelangelo came from a family that claimed descent from lower nobility). However, the Romans didn’t call this artist “Merisi,” nor could they bring themselves to call him “Michelangelo” (and risk conflating him with the established legacy of the most famous artist by that name). So, Michelangelo Merisi became known by the nickname “Caravaggio,” referring to the northern Italian town that his family called home. In the case of Caravaggio, then, the patronymic (“from the town of Caravaggio”) is used instead of the Christian name “Michelangelo” or the surname “Merisi.” I’m not sure if this clears anything up. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/35 "2014-05-22T01:42:54Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Thanks once again **Simplicio** - it really looks as though this is a good and proper slapdown of the pedantry on this particular issue. Sure, was fun. I’m always impressed by how many weird data-bases there are available online. Searchable 15th century Florentine election records and the like. > [@Gotterfunken](#): > > It’s been my understanding (in Renaissance art history, anyway) that in 15th century Florence (and most other places in Italy), surnames were fashionable for noble families (or family houses that aspired to nobility)–most artists were from working class families, and thus generally didn’t have surnames. My previous cite notes that Florence was somewhat unusual in this regard. Being a member of a family that had previously been elected to office gave one a leg-up in future elections, so families (like the da Vincis) who had held and aspired to hold offices in the gov’t adopted surnames fifty or so years earlier then the general Florentine populace. > [@](#): > > The use of surnames was peculiar in Florentine practice, and was in part related to the requirements of the periodic scrutinies and drawings of candidates for office. Those whose close ascendant paternal kin had previously been drawn for office could be admitted to scrutinies as ‘benefiziati’, whereas newcomers were voted on separately. Families (casate) established in the office-holding group generally had surnames, although it might take a few generations for a stable surname to develop. In the Catasto of 1427, only 36 per cent of the household heads reported were listed with surnames., but among records in the Tratte data file, 84 per cent of men drawn for the Tre Maggiori had surnames, as did 64 per cent of men drawn f ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/36 "2014-05-22T06:57:23Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > … so families (like the da Vincis) … You enjoyed saying that, I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/37 "2014-05-22T13:20:08Z")
If he had just fucked one sheep… _just one sheep_, we would not be having this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/38 "2014-05-22T13:36:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If he had just fucked one sheep… _just one sheep_, we would not be having this discussion. Maybe the evidence is out there somewhere… ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/39 "2014-05-23T16:33:37Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > …And this was, obviously, well before the time when “most Italians began to assume” surnames. For them, it was a toponym… When Italians assume, they make an ass-a out-a you and a-me-a. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902/40 "2014-05-23T16:37:01Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > I’d say that, if I’m John the Smith because I’m a blacksmith, and my son is Joe Smith because he’s my son, Smith is my son’s surname, but it’s not mine. > > Where things get murky is where my son is also a blacksmith, and it’s not really possible to say whether he gets called “Smith” because he’s a blacksmith, or because he’s my son… However, trades were commonly passed down from father to son in those days, much more so than today. Nowadays, the son of a carpenter might decide to go to auto mechanics’ school. In the middle ages, one would often learn a trade at home or else be steered to a trade school or apprenticeship with a third party via family connections. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-da-vinci-contention-was-it-and-if-not-is-it-now-his-surname/688902.md?page=3)