# The Dance With Dragons discussion thread (open spoilers!) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 14, 2011, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998 "2011-07-14T12:25:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/321 "2012-01-26T17:48:53Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > I was actually kind of glad to see this thread revived. > > GRRM definitely dropped hints about Jon’s parentage in AGOT. At the very least, he shrouded the whole subject in so much mystery that we certainly couldn’t take Ned’s word for it. Now, I’m one who said, “now way!” when I initially heard the rumor about Ned’s sister being Jon’s mother and the Targaryan being the father. (Wow, I forgot a lot of names already). But after going back and reading the passage in Thrones where Ned is having flashbacks while he’s injured, it seems fairly obvious that his sister had just had a child when he went to rescue her. Somehow I never made this connection on this one. What’s the basis of this theory? Is there anything more than the flashback? I feel like there’s about 5 theories voiced by different characters in the books and I can never keep them straight. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/322 "2012-01-26T19:03:36Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Somehow I never made this connection on this one. What’s the basis of this theory? Is there anything more than the flashback? > > I feel like there’s about 5 theories voiced by different characters in the books and I can never keep them straight. It is hard to pick up on your first read through, but the phrase “the bed of blood” is used several times throughout the books to mean giving childbirth and the very first time it is used is by Ned thinking of Lyanna “i found her in her bed of blood”. To anyone reading the books for the first time that just sounds like she is dying. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/323 "2012-01-26T19:11:30Z")
> [@](#): > > I mean, yeah it’s a dick move, but Tyrion got his revenge on his father for it. This is a chick he hasn’t seen in 20+ years and a piece of truth that doesn’t materially change anything. It simply means that his father did something cruel and evil toa girl who loved him as opposed to a girl who was complicit in tricking him. Sucks for her, but that just means that Tyrion’s life was marginally less awful and hopeless than he previously thought. Well, it’s a bit more than that, isn’t it? It means he _participated in a gang rape_ of a girl who loved him (and who presumably thought he did so by choice). It makes perfect sense to me that he would go a bit crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/324 "2012-01-26T19:31:42Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Somehow I never made this connection on this one. What’s the basis of this theory? Is there anything more than the flashback? > > I feel like there’s about 5 theories voiced by different characters in the books and I can never keep them straight. The Lyanna/Rheagar theory is the one I didn’t believe until rereading. In Ned’s flashback, Lyanna is said to have been lying in a bed of blood. That phrase was previously used for giving birth. Rhaegar’s guards were protecting Lyanna at a tower in an obscure location in Ned’s flashback. In ASOS there are stories and hints of some kind of affair between Lyanna and Rhaegar. And of course, some promise that Ned made to Lyanna. Many assume the promise is to keep Jon a secret so that he is not killed for being a Targaryan. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/325 "2012-01-26T21:37:40Z")
Tere’s a good summary of the three leading Jon Snow parentage theories [here](http://www.towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html). It was written before _Dance_, although I don’t recall any major reveals that would displace the reasoning in it. The author favours the J=R+L idea pretty convincingly. SO despite my dislike of it I guess that’s what we’ve got to go on. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/326 "2012-01-26T22:07:01Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > Tere’s a good summary of the three leading Jon Snow parentage theories [here](http://www.towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html). If you click on that link, make sure to enter in the the last novel you read at the top, or you’ll just get a blank space, with reader comments after. It only took me an hour to puzzle it out. [sub]I used to be sharper[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/327 "2012-01-26T22:13:26Z")
Sorry, I forgot about that. It’s quite a nifty feature if you haven’t read all the books I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/328 "2012-01-26T22:59:39Z")
If it ever comes out that R+L=J is false I’ll believe that George retconned it. There’s no way it’s not true. It’s very subtle through GoT. A lot of things Ned hears remind him of Jon or Lyanna, and it wouldn’t make sense otherwise. Then there’s the bed of blood, etc. Later we read about Dany seeing a blue rose sprout from a wall of ice… Rhaegar needing another kid while Elia couldn’t have one, naming Lyanna queen of love and beauty, etc. etc. etc. As far as some of the other prophecy goes, both Dany and Jon are hinted at being Azor Ahai. Dany woke dragons from stone (eggs) and was reborn among smoke and salt. Jon is killed beneath a red star, while his wounds steamed (smoke) and Bowen Marsch cried (salt). Melisandre asks to see Azor Ahai in her flames, but is only shown “Snow.” With a capital S. Someone also has a vision of him with a red sword in his hand. Benjen being Coldhands is an old theory, and widely believed, but there’s not much evidence for it. Basically Benjen was lost and Coldhands was in the Watch. Some of the more subtle theories that are fun to speculate about are that Jeyne Westerling was smuggled out of the Red Wedding and is carrying Robb’s son and that Bran ate Jojen. Both have very slight textual evidence, but it’s there. I imagine both those will have definitive answers, unlike Syrio/Jaqen or Benjen/Coldhands. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/329 "2012-01-26T23:08:59Z")
That site is pretty awesome and they make a very compelling case. I’m sold. I wish they’d update a lot of these theories with content from Feast and Dances though. I think it probably fills in a lot of the timelines and includes a lot of subtle hints. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/330 "2012-01-27T00:05:54Z")
Did everyone see this? Apparently GRRM answered the top 10 questions from the ASoIaF reddit yesterday. Nothing of note was revealed but it’s interesting Find it [here](http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/ox8vg/spoilers_all_books_george_rr_martin_responds_to/). ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/331 "2012-01-27T00:19:39Z")
The Tower of the Hand is a great site isn’t it? I found GRRM’s ‘interview’ (more a conversation really) with Bernard Cornwall pretty interesting as well. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/332 "2012-01-27T17:27:24Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Did everyone see this? > > Apparently GRRM answered the top 10 questions from the ASoIaF reddit yesterday. Nothing of note was revealed but it’s interesting Find it [here](http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/ox8vg/spoilers_all_books_george_rr_martin_responds_to/). I’m shocked nobody asked about Syrio. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/333 "2012-01-27T19:02:33Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I’m shocked nobody asked about Syrio. Don’t have the link readily available, but I remember reading GRRM’s response to questions about Syrio and he was very vague (of course) as to whether or not he’s \*really \*dead. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/334 "2012-01-27T19:08:26Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Don’t have the link readily available, but I remember reading GRRM’s response to questions about Syrio and he was very vague (of course) as to whether or not he’s \*really \*dead. The answer was pretty much “he was in a room with a knight determined to kill him, without a weapon or armor. We know the knight lived…” George doesn’t give straight answers, but Syrio’s fucking dead. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/335 "2012-04-02T14:02:52Z")
I’m bumping this thread in part because you can never have too many GRRM threads on the front page of CS, and partly because I finally finished this damn book over the weekend! It took a long time. Longer than I care to admit or have even tracked. But, man, it was a slow book. I’ve read a couple dozen posts in this thread and I’ll go back after I post here to read them all. But I want to say that I agree with you all that this book was about moving pieces around, could have been half as long as it was, and definitely needed some “big moments” to centralize the plot. What was this book about? For instance, I love Tyrion. I think he’s probably my favorite character. And I thought his chapters were entertaining. But what happened? He had 12 chapters and what happened? 1. He escaped Westeros and came to the Free Cities 2. He met Jon Connington and the possible Prince 3. He befriends Penny 4. He teams up with Brown Ben Plumm. That’s it. That’s his storyline distilled to its essence. That took 12 chapters to tell? Dany’s story was even more maddening. Not only did nothing really happen, but it all happened so unnecessarily. So uncharacteristically. This is a woman (ok, girl) who is leader of her bloodriders. Commander of the unsullied armies. Mother of dragons. Mother. Of. Dragons. They are her children. She has killed to protect them in the past. There is no way she would lock them up. You don’t do that with your children. But besides that, it took an entire ten chapters to move her character to a place where she should have been from the very begining! In chess it would be like jumping your knight around the board until it lands back in its starting location because you couldn’t think of anything better to do at the time. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/336 "2012-04-02T14:13:47Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Dany’s story was even more maddening. Not only did nothing really happen, but it all happened so unnecessarily. So uncharacteristically. This is a woman (ok, girl) who is leader of her bloodriders. Commander of the unsullied armies. Mother of dragons. Mother. Of. Dragons. They are her children. She has killed to protect them in the past. There is no way she would lock them up. You don’t do that with your children. But she considers all of her people her children, and the dragons were eating actual children. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/337 "2012-04-02T14:55:08Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > But she considers all of her people her children, and the dragons were eating actual children. Unless she plans on conquering the world (which, even with the dragons, seems unlikely), she’s going to have to make a decision soon about moving on to Westeros and reclaiming the Red Keep and Dragonstone or continuing with her anti-slavery crusade over on the other side of the world. Practically, it would probably make more sense to head for Westeros, do what she needs to do to retake everything (and incidentally help save the world from the Others), then use that base for the abolitionist crusade. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/338 "2012-04-02T15:12:38Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > But she considers all of her people her children, and the dragons were eating actual children. Possibly eating them. Nothing was proven, just some hasty pay-off to sweep it all under the carpet. Besides which, her role, her goal, was to bring her army back to Westeros to rule. I mean, if she’s switched her priorities and wants to spend the rest of her days ruling Mereen, that’s cool for her. But to my mind, she’s never done that because doing so would mean she’s no longer crucial to the story of the 7 Kingdoms. No, she wants to take her army and take her dragons and go claim her birthright. So what’s been stopping her? Other than Martin needing her to chill for about a year while he puts all the other pieces where he wants them, why isn’t Dany launching an all out attack on Westeros? Because there’s trouble in Mereen? There’s trouble everywhere. Life is pain, your highness. Anyone who tells you differently is trying to sell you something. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/339 "2012-04-02T15:19:54Z")
Dany never actually lived in Westeros, when she thinks about “home” she thinks about the house she grew up in while in exile not King’s Landing. Conquering Westeros is something she feels she must do because of who she is, not because she has any actual investment in the place. If she was just a random girl with dragons she wouldn’t even be thinking about it, the only thing stopping her is that she cares more for the free cities than for a continent she has no connection to other than a name. I think her exit from Mereen has already been set into motion though. The city is going to be ravaged by plague from the invading army catapulting plagued corpses in, there is going to be a huge battle involving her dragons, and more importantly Victarion is on his way with enough ships to carry all her people. Not having enough ships to carry all her people and not wanting to abandon them was a huge reason for her staying. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998/340 "2012-08-08T11:57:54Z")
Just read it. Without a doubt the best book about medieval bureaucracy ever. Imagine the first book, but mostly about the King’s Court getting ready to travel to Winterfell, Lord Stark solving petty conflicts the locals have… until it finishes with the arrival of Robert and family. For two long, long books. And yet it could all have been forgiven if GRRM had deigned to give us an epic moment or two. Something to remember, some sort of climax… and nothing. We don’t even find who the Harpy is (btw, it’s totally the green priestess) And he had the perfect chance… he just needed to have Tyrion fight the lions in the show, clumsily but lucking out once or twice… and then he quips, wait for it… _"don’t worry, I have experience killing lions._" Now, leaving us with nothing is absolutely unforgivable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dance-with-dragons-discussion-thread-open-spoilers/588998.md?page=18)