# The dangerous politics of Medicare For All **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 31, 2019, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922 "2019-07-31T11:19:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/101 "2019-08-06T20:50:17Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Wait, “doing the opposite” as in encouraging black folks to move into what for them could be an oppressive hellhole? Fallacy of the excluded middle. Not gonna dignify it. Way off topic from OP, at any rate. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/102 "2019-08-11T14:25:58Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Universal healthcare doesn’t have to mean MFA. Germany (I think?), Switzerland (I think?) and some other northern European countries have achieved universal coverage using private insurers. > > As far as I can tell, there are three ways to achieve universal coverage: > > Government as provider (UK’s National Health, US’s VA hospital system) > Single Payer (Canada, Medicare) > Private health insurance, with mandates, coverage requirements, and subsidies (Obamacare if done right, some European countries) > > They all have pluses and minuses, but if implemented properly, can all provide universal coverage with better outcomes for less money than our mess of a system. > > Moving from private coverage mostly through employers to MFA would be a giant move and Sanders shouldn’t require purity on that – he and Biden can argue why their method is better without implying or saying outright that it’s their way or the highway. I could see boosting Obamacare rules, while adding a public option (optional buy-in to Medicare, for example) and if people prefer that, they can go that way. If MFA really would be better, then more and more people could choose the public option and the final transition would be easier. However, if employers and unions continue to provide better coverage, as long as people are covered, it’s better than we had a few years ago. Good post. Getting to universal coverage doesn’t require the abolition of private insurance. There are many ways to get to UC. But all ways to get to UC do require a government presence. There’s no way to get to UC unless our government is willing to do the things that are known that can get us there. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/103 "2019-08-11T15:05:27Z")
Just to correct some misconceptions … > [@steronz](#): > > I was surprised in the debate last night how everyone was talking about MFA would “ban” private insurance. Maybe I haven’t been paying attention but that can’t possibly be part of the proposal, right? Other countries with single payer systems still have private insurance for those who want to pay extra for extra coverage, right? That’s not typically how it works, although sometimes private supplemental insurance does cover some (usually minor) items that aren’t part of the public system. More typically, though, the co-existence of public and private insurance is in the form of a two-tier system where you’re either in the public system or the private system on an all-or-nothing basis, one or the other. In most countries, as in Canada and the UK, the public system offers comprehensive coverage without co-pays and no limitations for all medically necessary procedures. > [@RitterSport](#): > > Universal healthcare doesn’t have to mean MFA. Germany (I think?), Switzerland (I think?) and some other northern European countries have achieved universal coverage using private insurers. Switzerland, yes, and it’s one of the reasons that their per-capita health care costs are among the highest in the world, though completely dwarfed by the astronomical costs in the US. Still, the Swiss system is universal, highly regulated, and subsidized when necessary. But the German public system uses a network of tightly regulated “sickness funds” which are non-profit and community-rated, and all offer basically the same benefits, the net effect of which is that it operates much like single-payer, and the network of different payers is more historical happenstance than anything else. This system is completely distinct from the private insurance tier, which operates much like the commercial American system and is only available to those above a certain income threshold and is utilized by just a little over 10% of the population. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/104 "2019-08-11T17:36:59Z")
Which is still quite different from the 0% Warren and Sanders would allow. In the U.S., 11% is almost 40 million people. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/105 "2019-08-11T18:02:42Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Which is still quite different from the 0% Warren and Sanders would allow. In the U.S., 11% is almost 40 million people. That’s a totally bizarre and utterly distorted interpretation of the facts I just laid out. The 10% or so who choose to go with the private insurance tier do so voluntarily and basically because they can afford superficial amenities, like coverage for private rooms in hospitals that look more like hotels. But everyone is entitled to choose the public system which offers unconditional and unlimited coverage of all medically necessary procedures. Canada has seen no need for a private insurance tier at all. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/106 "2019-08-11T18:38:23Z")
Yours is the “totally bizarre and utterly distorted interpretation”, at least insofar as I can even make out what you are saying at all. What you are describing in Germany sounds like the “Medicare for all who want it” approach that all the other top- and middle-tier candidates support, and which Warren and Sanders would not allow. What is “distorted” about that? 😕 Maybe you didn’t understand what I was saying? ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/107 "2019-08-11T20:11:05Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Which is still quite different from the 0% Warren and Sanders would allow. In the U.S., 11% is almost 40 million people. That’s right. And 11% is much less than the US population share who have private insurance (over half the US is on private insurance). As best I can tell, Sanders would not allow private insurance at all. I haven’t studied Warren’s plan - if it’s any different than Sanders. So, it would be very disruptive to go to Sanders’ version of M4A. Some other versions aren’t as absolutist in getting rid of Private insurance, but still achieve UC. See the link for a look at some countries and how they use different means to achieve UC. The Netherlands and Switzerland seem to use what I would call “doing Obamacare right” approach and they achieved UC, and seem happy with it. We could do the same in the US and get to UC via an “ACA done right” option: > **[Variations on a Theme: A Look at Universal Health Coverage in Eight Countries](https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/2019/universal-health-coverage-eight-countries)** > > Let’s take a closer look at how eight of our peer countries get to universal coverage, how much they pay for their health care, and what role private insurance plays in each. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/108 "2019-08-11T20:21:11Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > That’s right. And 11% is much less than the US population share who have private insurance (over half the US is on private insurance). As best I can tell, Sanders would not allow private insurance at all. I haven’t studied Warren’s plan - if it’s any different than Sanders. She doesn’t have her own plan. She endorses Bernie’s. And she and Bernie were the only major candidates to raise their hands and say they would outlaw private health insurance. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/109 "2019-08-11T21:37:39Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > She doesn’t have her own plan. She endorses Bernie’s. And she and Bernie were the only major candidates to raise their hands and say they would outlaw private health insurance. OK thanks for the clarification. I didn’t watch the debate. Here’s a report by the US Census Bureau that lays out a lot of stats on health coverage in the US. It says that 67% of Americans with health coverage has a type of private health insurance - either through their employer, their union, or purchased individually on-exchange or off-exchange. > **[p60-264.pdf](https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2018/demo/p60-264.pdf)** > > 1324.83 KB ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/110 "2019-08-11T21:51:32Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > At the place where I got my IVAPS machine, the woman in charge of billing pulled up my insurance and exclaimed “Wow, you have such a low deductible! I wish mine was this low.” IVAPS. So you mean Internal Vapor Application Penumbra Slicer? Or maybe Index of Venal Ambulance Potash Succubi? Or is it something else? Don’t keep us in suspense! Do you think it’s cute or hip to only offer initialisms? Like some teenaged Leetspeaker with her teenaged friends? Are you just lazy? Do you have no wish for people to understand what you’re saying? You’ve done this several times already in this thread. Say what you mean. Don’t try to make us look it up. Just fucking write it out. WTF? (That stands for Whiskey Tango Foxtrot). ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/111 "2019-08-11T22:04:47Z")
I was just calling it the word the doctor used. It’s for a rare type of central sleep apnea produced in some patients by therapy with a less expensive BiPAP machine. This is the machine Blue Cross/Blue Shield bought for me after titration via my third sleep study (also expensive, also covered by BC/BS): [ResMed AirCurve 10 ASV w/Humidair Humidifier – HelpMedicalSupplies](https://helpmedicalsupplies.com/products/aircurve-10-asv-w-humidair-humidifier?variant=10865754669171&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-b7qBRDPARIsADVbUbX8Wt0bMupuOvrDeHy1jZ-YUj2K067nkbCHclcvhrU1PoPurQ1AG2caAmksEALw_wcB) ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/112 "2019-08-11T22:10:01Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I was just calling it the word the doctor used. It’s for a rare type of central sleep apnea produced in some patients by therapy with a less expensive **BiPAP** machine. [Bolding mine] **Bilevel Positive Airway Pressure**. See how easy that was? Maybe someone can tail behind after every post of yours to write out what you seem unwilling to. Why are you unwilling? It’s not like I’m suggesting you spell out what \*\*USA \*\*or **SDMB** means. Why not be reasonable and mature? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/113 "2019-08-11T22:36:04Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > IVAPS. So you mean Internal Vapor Application Penumbra Slicer? Or maybe Index of Venal Ambulance Potash Succubi? Or is it something else? Don’t keep us in suspense! > > Do you think it’s cute or hip to only offer initialisms? Like some teenaged Leetspeaker with her teenaged friends? Are you just lazy? Do you have no wish for people to understand what you’re saying? You’ve done this several times already in this thread. Say what you mean. Don’t try to make us look it up. Just fucking write it out. WTF? (That stands for Whiskey Tango Foxtrot). > [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > [Bolding mine] > > **Bilevel Positive Airway Pressure**. > > See how easy that was? Maybe someone can tail behind after every post of yours to write out what you seem unwilling to. Why are you unwilling? It’s not like I’m suggesting you spell out what \*\*USA \*\*or **SDMB** means. Why not be reasonable and mature? Dial back the hostility. There is no rule against using acronyms. There is a rule against insults so if you feel you must, the Pit is right around the corner. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/114 "2019-08-11T22:38:57Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yours is the “totally bizarre and utterly distorted interpretation”, at least insofar as I can even make out what you are saying at all. What you are describing in Germany sounds like the “Medicare for all who want it” approach that all the other top- and middle-tier candidates support, and which Warren and Sanders would not allow. What is “distorted” about that? 😕 Maybe you didn’t understand what I was saying? Your confusion is mystifying to me, as the health care options in Germany and most other countries are very easy to understand: **everyone is entitled to health care, whether or not they can afford it**. Period. In many countries, those with ample means can choose a private option, but to directly quote what I said earlier, “the 10% or so who choose to go with the private insurance tier do so voluntarily and basically because they can afford superficial amenities, like coverage for private rooms in hospitals that look more like hotels.” But, unlike US Medicare, **the public option doesn’t exhibit the ruthless savagery of limiting access to medically necessary care** , such as throwing a patient out of hospital simply because a set number of days have expired and that’s all they’re going to pay for. I live in Canada and, like the citizens of most of the countries in the civilized world, I can just take it for granted that if I’m sick, I will get the health care I need, without conditions, co-pays, co-insurance, forms, certifications, or any other bullshit, regardless of what it costs. Maybe you didn’t understand what I was saying? [Maybe you don’t understand how health care really works in the rest of the world?](https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/07/opinions/single-payer-healthcare-beers/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/115 "2019-08-11T22:52:27Z")
It looks like _you_ don’t understand what _I_ am saying, or what the other Democratic candidates are saying. All of them advocate going to universal healthcare for everyone, as a human right. That does not mean banning private insurance. I am truly mystified as to where you are getting this. Did you read the whole thread? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/116 "2019-08-11T22:56:33Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > It looks like _you_ don’t understand what _I_ am saying, or what the other Democratic candidates are saying. All of them advocate going to universal healthcare for everyone, as a human right. That does not mean banning private insurance. > > I am truly mystified as to where you are getting this. Did you read the whole thread? Actually Sanders plan does effectively plan private Insurance. Altho he calls it medicare for all, it bears little relation to actual Medicare. It’s simply pure socialized medicine. I think Warren likes the same plan. Others want Medicare for all, which means of course lots of private insurance- Medicare Parts C &D, and of course some will want cadillac plans. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/117 "2019-08-11T23:22:24Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > It looks like _you_ don’t understand what _I_ am saying, or what the other Democratic candidates are saying. All of them advocate going to universal healthcare for everyone, as a human right. That’s because health care **is** a human right, and therefore should be universal. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > That does not mean banning private insurance. Correct, it obviously does not mean banning private insurance. Almost no country has done that. Canada has done so (for medically necessary coverage) for specific reasons having to do with the proximal influence of the US insurance lobby and the massively profitable private hospital industry, but most other countries continue to offer private insurance as an available tier for those people who want that option and can afford it. I never said otherwise. But if they don’t choose that option, or can’t afford it, they are still fully covered for all essential health care. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I am truly mystified as to where you are getting this. Did you read the whole thread? Getting _ **what** _? I think your reading comprehension is seriously deficient here. Go back and carefully read my factual statements. If there’s something you still don’t understand or find mystifying, please be specific about exactly what it is so I can explain it. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/118 "2019-08-12T00:16:16Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > That’s because health care **is** a human right, and therefore should be universal. According to whom? And what if others disagree? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/119 "2019-08-12T00:39:23Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > According to whom? And what if others disagree? [Ayn Rand.](https://boingboing.net/2011/01/28/ayn-rand-took-govern.html) ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/120 "2019-08-12T00:42:24Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Getting _ **what** _? I think your reading comprehension is seriously deficient here. Let’s not cast aspersions about others’ reading comprehension. [/moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922.md?page=7)