# The dangerous politics of Medicare For All **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 31, 2019, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922 "2019-07-31T11:19:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/121 "2019-08-12T01:08:22Z")
Okay, since it’s my thread I will try to calmly untangle this in the face of what seems like unprovoked hostility. You started by saying: > [@wolfpup](#): > > Just to correct some misconceptions … Presumably this means you think the people you quoted below that have misconceptions. The second quote was the following: > [@RitterSport](#): > > Universal healthcare doesn’t have to mean MFA. Germany (I think?), Switzerland (I think?) and some other northern European countries have achieved universal coverage using private insurers. To which you responded: > [@wolfpup](#): > > Switzerland, yes, and it’s one of the reasons that their per-capita health care costs are among the highest in the world, though completely dwarfed by the astronomical costs in the US. Still, the Swiss system is universal, highly regulated, and subsidized when necessary. > > But the German public system uses a network of tightly regulated “sickness funds” which are non-profit and community-rated, and all offer basically the same benefits, the net effect of which is that it operates much like single-payer, and the network of different payers is more historical happenstance than anything else. This system is completely distinct from the private insurance tier, which operates much like the commercial American system and is only available to those above a certain income threshold and is utilized by just a little over 10% of the population. What “misconception” did you clear up? You added some interesting details and context, but I don’t see the misconception. Then I responded to the “little over 10% of the population” part with: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Which is still quite different from the 0% Warren and Sanders would allow. In the U.S., 11% is almost 40 million people. This is just math, based on current estimates of the US population, combined with the fact that Warren and Sanders have clearly stated that they would not allow private health insurance at all. You responded to this very straightforward extrapolation with: > [@wolfpup](#): > > That’s a totally bizarre and utterly distorted interpretation of the facts I just laid out. The 10% or so who choose to go with the private insurance tier do so voluntarily and basically because they can afford superficial amenities, like coverage for private rooms in hospitals that look more like hotels. But everyone is entitled to choose the public system which offers unconditional and unlimited coverage of all medically necessary procedures. Canada has seen no need for a private insurance tier at all. What’s “totally bizarre and utterly distorted” about it? What was the point of saying “everyone is entitled to choose the public system which offers unconditional and unlimited coverage of all medically necessary procedures”? This would also be true for all the other major candidates like Biden and Buttigieg, who would offer a public plan for anyone who wants or needs one, but also allow people to stay on their private health plan if they prefer. The only way any of your combative posts make sense is if you think that RitterSport and I are arguing that healthcare is not a right and that there shouldn’t be universal coverage, that people should either not get treatment or go bankrupt from the cost of their treatments. But we haven’t said that, and have pretty directly said otherwise. Sooo…wot’s the deal? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/122 "2019-08-12T01:25:24Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > That’s because health care **is** a human right, and therefore should be universal. > > According to whom? And what if others disagree? Others are entitled to disagree, and to let themselves be governed accordingly. To paraphrase Joseph de Maistre, in a democracy people get the government – and the society – they deserve. It’s a pretty ruthless law of nature, actually, because social systems have no more forgiveness for the consequences of ignorance and bad policy than the physical laws of nature. If you choose to pay far more for health care than other nations while being content to get far less for it, while some of your fellow citizens die from lack of it altogether, then that’s a choice you collectively made and that’s the fundamental quality of the society you have to live in. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/123 "2019-08-12T01:30:44Z")
So I take it you have now concluded that your beef was not with RitterSport and me after all? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/124 "2019-08-12T02:25:16Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So I take it you have now concluded that your beef was not with RitterSport and me after all? No, I’ve been looking at the board intermittently and didn’t see your post #121 with its various strange circumlocutions the last time I posted. And I still have no idea what you’re on about, but I’ll respond to the best of my ability to follow your strange line of argument. To wit: > [@](#): > > What “misconception” did you clear up? You added some interesting details and context, but I don’t see the misconception. I cleared up the misconception that “Medicare for all” necessitates the banning of private insurance, and the additional misconception that private insurance is used to “pay extra for extra coverage”. In most systems, private insurance is a different form of coverage altogether when it comes to medically necessary health care, not an “add-on”, though it is that for sure in US Medicare. But that’s not how most systems work, which provide all medically necessary health care regardless of ability to pay and without conditions or limits, making “add-on” coverage redundant for medically necessary procedures. Instead of being “combative” – to use your term – you should strive to understand how other systems actually work, like that one that I’ve lived with all my life. > [@](#): > > Then I responded to the “little over 10% of the population” part with: … This is just math, based on current estimates of the US population, combined with the fact that Warren and Sanders have clearly stated that they would not allow private health insurance at all … You responded to this very straightforward extrapolation with: … What’s “totally bizarre and utterly distorted” about it? What was the point of saying “everyone is entitled to choose the public system which offers unconditional and unlimited coverage of all medically necessary procedures”? I still have absolutely no idea what the relevance of some percentage of the population choosing private vs. public health insurance is. The main point is that everyone gets health care, and those who can afford it get better amenities (more luxurious accommodations, better food). Your “little over 10% of the population” comment seemed to imply that 10% of the population would be left without health care benefits or something. Whether it’s 5%, or 10%, or 50% who choose that option is irrelevant. Who cares? They’re just the ones willing to fork out their own money to get more luxurious amenities and, possibly – for non-critical elective procedures – quicker access. That situation already exists in the US, [in a rather extreme and horrifying example of mercenary medicine](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/03/business/economy/high-end-medical-care.html). ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/125 "2019-08-12T02:49:40Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I cleared up the misconception that “Medicare for all” necessitates the banning of private insurance There was no such misconception in the posts you quoted. In fact, if anyone in this entire thread has had that misconception, I don’t recall it. However, Bernie’s single payer plan does in fact ban private health insurance, and Elizabeth Warren raised her hand to say she also supports eliminating private health insurance. (So did Kamala Harris, but she later walked it back.) Other Democrats running do not want to ban private health insurance, but they do want to fill in the gaps so that everyone is covered. In polls, Americans favor that more moderate patchwork approach to achieve universal coverage, but do not support the banning of private health insurance that Warren and Sanders are advocating. > [@wolfpup](#): > > Instead of being “combative” —to use your term — you should strive to understand how other systems actually work, like that one that I’ve lived with all my life. I have been studying this issue since I was in college and the “Hillarycare” proposal crashed and burned. Additionally, my sister became a naturalized Canadian citizen in the ‘90s, and so did my mother a few years ago. > [@wolfpup](#): > > I still have absolutely no idea what the relevance of some percentage of the population choosing private vs. public health insurance is. The relevance is that Warren and Sanders want to ban Americans from having that option, which clearly works perfectly well in Germany. > [@wolfpup](#): > > The main point is that everyone gets health care, and those who can afford it get better amenities (more luxurious accommodations, better food). Your “little over 10% of the population” comment seemed to imply that 10% of the population would be left without health care benefits or something. Whether it’s 5%, or 10%, or 50% who choose that option is irrelevant. Who cares? They’re just the ones willing to fork out their own money to get more luxurious amenities and, possibly – for non-critical elective procedures – quicker access. The whole point of this thread is that it is crucial politically to have a system like that where people who are more well off can have precisely those advantages. _Warren and Sanders do not want to allow anyone to have that option._ I’m repeating myself, but it really seems like you aren’t aware of the distinction between their proposal and what other Democrats are advocating. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/126 "2019-08-12T14:06:11Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And as I know both anecdotally (because my mother and sister are Canadian) and from reading on the subject, Canada has lengthy delays that would cause riots if they happened here. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Meanwhile I have been consuming lots of long-deferred medical care in the past two years after a couple decades of being either uninsured or underinsured. Blue Cross/Blue Shield has taken great care of me. As they say on Sesame Street, “One of these things is not like the other”. You’re saying that there would be riots in the US if there were wait lists like in Canada (eg - some months to get an MRI), and yet Americans put up with no health care for decades because they aren’t insured or uninsured. Why weren’t you rioting in the streets when you were denied health care for decades? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/127 "2019-08-12T14:46:36Z")
Reduced and non-service are OK if they happen to other people, and you can rationalize it by finding a way to say they just aren’t as deserving as you. You only protest when it starts to happen to you too. Medical care is just one example. ---
**Author:** ![Emily\_Litella](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emily_litella/32/3370_2.png) [@Emily\_Litella](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emily_Litella)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/128 "2019-08-12T17:42:58Z")
If 2nd place Bernie starts taking the lead over Biden I bet the Medical industry and Big Pharma will be out rioting in the streets. Or more like throwing tons of money around to advertise against Bernie. No more billions in profits for them if M4A becomes law. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2019, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/129 "2019-08-12T19:56:30Z")
> [@Emily\_Litella](#): > > If 2nd place Bernie starts taking the lead over Biden I bet the Medical industry and Big Pharma will be out rioting in the streets. Or more like throwing tons of money around to advertise against Bernie. No more billions in profits for them if M4A becomes law. If the government is footing the bill, I am sure that medical costs will become much lower. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/130 "2019-08-13T23:28:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Reduced and non-service are OK if they happen to other people, and you can rationalize it by finding a way to say they just aren’t as deserving as you. You only protest when it starts to happen to you too. Medical care is just one example. 😕 Did you even read the post you seem to be responding to, right above yours? > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > As they say on Sesame Street, “One of these things is not like the other”. > > You’re saying that there would be riots in the US if there were wait lists like in Canada (eg - some months to get an MRI), and yet Americans put up with no health care for decades because they aren’t insured or uninsured. > > Why weren’t you rioting in the streets when you were denied health care for decades? Because I was not a privileged, affluent swing voter with good insurance who had that suddenly changed by politicians. I was working hard to support Democrats, though, and I was bitterly disappointed when Obamacare did not cover me. And it’s not just about waiting for MRIs. My sister has twice had to wait months for surgery on her knee and foot that meant she had to use crutches in the interim. It was only non-critical in the sense that she would not die while waiting. The wound care red tape my mother ran into OTOH could have killed her since she is a diabetic. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/131 "2019-08-13T23:51:36Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And it’s not just about waiting for MRIs. My sister has twice had to wait months for surgery on her knee and foot that meant she had to use crutches in the interim. It was only non-critical in the sense that she would not die while waiting. I’m one of the guys with good health care paid for by my employer and me. The surgeon to do my hip replacement planned to go on vacation with a friend, and I had to wait a month. His friend died (I wonder what health insurance he had) and the surgeon sat around the house or played golf while I walked on crutches and waited for a month. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/132 "2019-08-15T01:39:09Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Other Democrats running do not want to ban private health insurance, but they do want to fill in the gaps so that everyone is covered. In polls, Americans favor that more moderate patchwork approach to achieve universal coverage, but do not support the banning of private health insurance that Warren and Sanders are advocating. That’s right. When polled about private coverage ceasing, people don’t like it so much. Let’s keep in mind that most Americans like their health care (about 80%), and their insurance (about 70%). > **[Most Americans Still Rate Their Healthcare Quite Positively](https://news.gallup.com/poll/245195/americans-rate-healthcare-quite-positively.aspx)** > > Majorities of Americans rate the coverage (69%) and quality (80%) of the healthcare they personally receive as "excellent" or "good," but Americans are much less positive about healthcare in the U.S. in general. People tend to like their own situation pretty good, even if they think the overall US situation is bad. And honestly, most people know their own situation better than they know the macro-situation…kind of like I know my own car better than I know the entire auto industry. And in my own experience, I like my healthcare and my insurance. I have private insurance through my employer, and it’s worked well for me and my family (including some family members with serious chronic conditions). I’d hate to lose it. Anyway, in the face of most polling, whatever Democrat gets nominated, I hope they keep Private Insurance around. If they try and get rid of it, I think they’ll lose a lot of support in the general election. We can get to UC without throwing out private insurance. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/133 "2019-08-15T10:56:33Z")
That poll is very instructive about the danger. I showed it to several friends, including some who are generally pragmatic and not on the left edge of the party, and they were genuinely surprised by those results. They really believed that almost everyone hated their health insurance company. In a weird way, I see the greatest threat to people’s health care being what might happen within a decade if Warren wins fairly comfortably thanks to massive disgust with Trump, and perhaps a burgeoning recession. She claims a mandate, gets this law passed, and consumers get kicked off their private insurance while millions of people who now work in the health insurance industry suddenly find themselves out of jobs. Actually, not just them but benefit advisors at workplaces, clerical staff at hospitals and doctors offices who sort out insurance claims, etc. A great improvement in economic efficiency to be sure, but also a massive economic and social shock to the system. Who’s to say other jobs get created for them right away, as opposed to this being the jumpstart of the automation economy Yang warns of (which I started a [thousand-post thread about back in 2012](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=637834)), with fewer net jobs available? So we get a huge Republican backlash wave election sometime in the 2020s, and they repeal MFA. But wait: Medicaid and Obamacare were already repealed when that law was put into place. Oops. So now we go back to the 1950s? Maybe Republicans put something barebones back into play for the very poorest, but it won’t be much, especially for adults in their 30s/40s/50s… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/134 "2019-08-15T14:13:51Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > That poll is very instructive about the danger. I showed it to several friends, including some who are generally pragmatic and not on the left edge of the party, and they were genuinely surprised by those results. They really believed that almost everyone hated their health insurance company. > > She claims a mandate, gets this law passed, and consumers get kicked off their private insurance while millions of people who now work in the health insurance industry suddenly find themselves out of jobs. Actually, not just them but benefit advisors at workplaces, clerical staff at hospitals and doctors offices who sort out insurance claims, etc. A great improvement in economic efficiency to be sure, but also a massive economic and social shock to the system. I don’t hate my insurance plan, I hate the amount of money the insurance and medical companies make. I would hate to keep wasting this huge amount of money to keep clerks employed. A concept I’ve not heard mentioned is providing employment when an industry fires most of their employees, like coal mining. Such a plan should include any large number of workers for any industry. With health care, the loss of jobs will be expected. It would be much easier to move medical insurance workers to life, real estate or automotive insurance than retrain coal miners. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/135 "2019-08-15T19:15:02Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So we get a huge Republican backlash wave election sometime in the 2020s, and they repeal MFA. But wait: Medicaid and Obamacare were already repealed when that law was put into place. Oops. So now we go back to the 1950s? Maybe Republicans put something barebones back into play for the very poorest, but it won’t be much, especially for adults in their 30s/40s/50s… That’s one talking point in support of not going to a one-size-fits-all health coverage approach. If we do M4A, and there are no other choices, then a group of angry Republicans could wreck the whole system. Currently, they can only take potshots at smaller parts, and not the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2019, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/136 "2019-08-15T20:55:59Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So we get a huge Republican backlash wave election sometime in the 2020s, and they repeal MFA. But wait: Medicaid and Obamacare were already repealed when that law was put into place. Oops. So now we go back to the 1950s? Maybe Republicans put something barebones back into play for the very poorest, but it won’t be much, especially for adults in their 30s/40s/50s… Close parallell to removing the ACA, which hasn’t happened for pretty much the same reasons. For the Republicans to take away the system without having a very clear and immediately available alternative would be flat out ballot box suicide. Think No Deal Brexit, but with no third party to try to shuffle the blame to. Putting some input into the debate from a Norwegian’s perspective; private insurance here is more about queue skipping, convenience and being able to second guess your doctor than anything else. (Frequently as banal as getting a doctor / office who grovel a bit / “are better at customer service”.) Sometimes it might also get you access to - or at least the ability to purchase - prohibitively expensive or experimental drugs for rare diseases. It doesn’t really hurt the faith in the core system and I doubt it’s going anywhere, but I can see the temptation for Sanders to kill it completely. Whatever remains after his reform has been amended to death in order to pass, will be what the Republicans will be trying to use to resuscitate its’ corpse. Bigger remains = bigger wedge. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2019, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/137 "2019-08-16T04:34:32Z")
When Warren and Sanders want to suddenly zoom right past Norway, it’s clear we have a problem. All the elements you described of what role private insurance plays in Norway are precisely what we need to preserve in our country to avoid political catastrophe. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > With health care, the loss of jobs will be expected. It would be much easier to move medical insurance workers to life, real estate or automotive insurance than retrain coal miners. And the people already working in those fields? > [@survinga](#): > > That’s one talking point in support of not going to a one-size-fits-all health coverage approach. If we do M4A, and there are no other choices, then a group of angry Republicans could wreck the whole system. Currently, they can only take potshots at smaller parts, and not the whole thing. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/138 "2019-08-18T14:18:19Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I don’t hate my insurance plan, I hate the amount of money the insurance and medical companies make. > > I would hate to keep wasting this huge amount of money to keep clerks employed. A concept I’ve not heard mentioned is providing employment when an industry fires most of their employees, like coal mining. Such a plan should include any large number of workers for any industry. With health care, the loss of jobs will be expected. It would be much easier to move medical insurance workers to life, real estate or automotive insurance than retrain coal miners. OK, well keep in mind that the health insurance industry employs half a million people. > **[Health insurance home-office employees U.S. number 1960-2021 | Statista](https://www.statista.com/statistics/194229/number-of-health-insurance-employees-in-the-us-since-1960/)** > > In 2000, there were 330,600 health insurance employees (home-office personnel) in the United States. That’s an awful lot of good jobs that potentially go out the door when we do M4A with no private insurance option. Now, I know some of them will find employment elsewhere. And government will absorb some of those jobs with more jobs needed for Medicare. But that’s a big displacement, and some families will not adjust and will be hurt. Also, things like VA, TriCare, and Medicaid will also come to an end under the Sanders M4A. These represent additional jobs lost within the government & with private contractors. States governments lose employment as well, as they no longer have a role in regulating health insurance. To avoid this displacement, I’m thinking that staying with the ACA and enhancing the subsidies, as well as beefing up the regs around insurers is a better option. As has been discussed earlier in this thread, we can get to full UC without getting rid of private insurance. Many countries have done that very thing, and are happy with their systems. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/139 "2019-08-18T15:52:32Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > OK, well keep in mind that the health insurance industry employs half a million people. … and not a single one of them actually provides health care, many of them actively work to block access to it by limiting or denying claims, and every single one of them adds to its cost. There may be valid arguments in favor of a private health insurance tier but that sure isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922/140 "2019-08-18T16:29:56Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > That’s an awful lot of good jobs that potentially go out the door when we do M4A with no private insurance option. I don’t see why. The number of people covered would not go down, and every one of them would continue to need insurance workers to handle that coverage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dangerous-politics-of-medicare-for-all/837922.md?page=8)