# "The Dark Historical Roots Of Our Thanksgiving" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2003, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-historical-roots-of-our-thanksgiving/217870 "2003-12-09T06:46:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-historical-roots-of-our-thanksgiving/217870/1 "2003-12-09T06:46:56Z")
[http://www.rense.com/general45/thanks.htm](http://www.rense.com/general45/thanks.htm) This editorial was posted at another messageboard that I’m a member of and it immediately struck me as a piece of sensationalism that uses biased information to further the author’s goal, whatever that may be. Not being the scholar that I wish I was, I’m not learned enough to refute any of this, so I turn to you guys to tell me if I my insticts are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-historical-roots-of-our-thanksgiving/217870/2 "2003-12-09T07:08:14Z")
I’m not familiar with the particulars outlined in that essay, but they are certainly within the bounds of what transpired between Europeans and Indians during the colonial period. However, if you doubt any particular fact, simply ask for cites of academic (peer review) research that is the source of the poster’s propositions. It should be fairly easy to judge the reliability of the sources, if they exist. If the poster is not forthcoming with sources, then it is reasonable to reject the claims. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-historical-roots-of-our-thanksgiving/217870/3 "2003-12-09T07:26:28Z")
I know it sounds somewhat reasonable but some of the language used and even the whole entire first paragraph (which is totally irrelevant to the Thanksgiving holiday) set off warning bells in my mind. And I’ve emailed its author but decided to post this here just in case he doesn’t respond. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-historical-roots-of-our-thanksgiving/217870/4 "2003-12-09T07:52:20Z")
From the linked site: > [@](#): > > and maliciously infecting them with smallpox. There have one or two occasions when it has been documented that whites attempted to transmit smallpox to the Indians (and one notably tragic occasion when it was done recjlessly, but not delierately). None of those occasions occurred before the arrival of whites at Plymouth. The coastal peoples _had_ been devastated by smallpox and a couple of other diseases, but they were not “maliciously” set. > [@](#): > > The pilgrims stole their stored crops, dug up graves for dishes and pots, and took many native people as prisoners and forced them to teach crop planting and survival techniques to the colonists in their new environment. Not really. The Pilgrims very definitely robbed graves and dug up _abandoned_ stores of maize. However, the graves that were robbed were from the villages deserted by the victims of smallpox. One can argue that grave-robbing is grave-robbing, but that is a different charge than that they stole the corn from living people who needed it. Similarly, the Plymouth colony under Bradford did not take prisoners from among the local peoples, particularly in their first two years. The Wampanoags actually welcomed the presence of the firearm bearing whites as potential allies in the ongoing inter-group warfare that was endemic to the region. (Squanto _was_ a twice-captured kidnap victim who showed great compassion in befriending the fellow-countrymen of one of his captors, but that had nothing to do with the Plymouth colony.) > [@](#): > > Two years later [1623] the English invited a number of tribes to a feast “symbolizing eternal friendship.” The English offered food and drink, and two hundred Indians dropped dead from unknown poison. I would like to see a reputable source for this claim. There is no question that the settlers who came to Massachusetts subsequent to the Plymouth settlers, including those who established the Bay Colony, began to behave in ever more aggressive and haeful patters. Some of this was due to simple xenophobia and land greed and some of this was reinforced when Indian nations at war with the Wampanoags attacked the whites as Wampanoag allies. However, the “first Thanksgiving” (with all the historical errors that have grown up around it) was celebrated at Plymouth–the one white colony that routinely maintained good relations with their Indian neighbors. > [@](#): > > It was not until 1863 that Abe Lincoln, needing a wave of patriotism to hold the country together, that Thanksgiving was nationally and officially declared and set forth to this day. This is false. Washington and Adams each declared national days of Thanksgiving (although not every year), and several of their successors followed suit. (Jefferson, holding true to his views of the separation of Church and state, declined to do so.) Many of the historical points for actions by the New Englanders against the Indians on that page are correct, (the King Phillip’s War was a long and treachery-filled series of brutally barbarous acts–with most of the barbarity committed by the invaders), but the site is slanted to make _every_ white action evil and history painted in such stark colors is rarely accurate. ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-historical-roots-of-our-thanksgiving/217870/5 "2003-12-09T13:24:49Z")
The plaque at Coles Hill, where the statue of Massasoit is reads: “Native Americans do not celebrate the arrival of the pilgrims and other European settlersÖ To them, thanksgiving day is a reminder of the genocide of millions of their people, the theft of their lands, and the relentless assault on their culture.” “Millions”? Really. Another reckless assertion and exaggeration. Another diatribe to discredit history and substitue fantasy. A real document would be rife with citations and sources of facts. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-historical-roots-of-our-thanksgiving/217870/6 "2003-12-09T13:59:22Z")
The poisoning incident did occur, pretty much as described, in the Virginia colony. It was in response to the massacre of over 300 English settlers. (The Jamestown Massacre.) I’ll try to dig up a cite later. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-historical-roots-of-our-thanksgiving/217870/7 "2003-12-09T14:13:50Z")
[Here’s a description of the Jamestown massacre.](http://www.iath.virginia.edu/vcdh/jamestown/phatmass.html) I’ll try to dig up a description of the poisoning incident that followed. (The poisoning did not occur in the Plymouth colony as implied by the essay linked in the OP, obviously.) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-historical-roots-of-our-thanksgiving/217870/8 "2003-12-09T14:22:30Z")
There’s a reference to the poisoning at [this site](http://www.historian.org/local/jamstwnva.htm). Scroll down to the entry for 1623-05. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-historical-roots-of-our-thanksgiving/217870/9 "2003-12-09T15:34:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spingears \* > \*\*The plaque at Coles Hill, where the statue of Massasoit is reads: “Native Americans do not celebrate the arrival of the pilgrims and other European settlersÖ To them, thanksgiving day is a reminder of the genocide of millions of their people, the theft of their lands, and the relentless assault on their culture.” > > “Millions”? Really. Another reckless assertion and exaggeration. > Another diatribe to discredit history and substitue fantasy. A real document would be rife with citations and sources of facts. \*\* I’ve seen serious scholars posit that the popluation of Native American _was_ actually in the millions before the Europeans arrived. They argue about the estimates, though. I’ve seen numbers ranging from just a few million upwards to more than a hundred million. (The larger numbers, I assume, include Central and South American populations.) Smallpox epidemics wiped out a large percentage even before the Euopean settlements began. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-historical-roots-of-our-thanksgiving/217870/10 "2003-12-09T17:36:30Z")
Did anyone else surf the main page of the web site that article was posted on? I did. Did you know that some loud screaming in Kentucky has been linked to alien abductions? There was another article asserting that anti-semitism isn’t the real danger to Jews today… Oh and there was a triangle UFO reported over LAX… And some fool named Stan Romanek says there will be an alien-driven 'catastrophe" on or around December 12. I’m thinking, while some of what is in that article may be half-true, when I look at the context in which it’s presented – next to some really ridiculous assertions – I’m thinking this author is full of beans. Newbies: Always take a good look at the source when you come across this sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-historical-roots-of-our-thanksgiving/217870/11 "2003-12-09T20:55:25Z")
Well, I’m not really a newbie but thanks. I didn’t think to check its main page. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-historical-roots-of-our-thanksgiving/217870/12 "2003-12-09T22:04:47Z")
Well, yeah, Rense is like that. But they frequently have actual Strange-But-True Weird News stuff in there, it’s not 100% woowoos and twinkies. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-historical-roots-of-our-thanksgiving/217870/13 "2003-12-09T22:22:05Z")
I believe Rense is a friend of **JanL** ’s. That should tell you something right there.