# The Dark Knight series finally dimmed the shine off Batman for me **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 3, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887 "2013-09-03T14:29:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/81 "2013-09-09T16:01:42Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Batman needs to lose the silly mask Are you criticizing the appearance of his mask, or saying he shouldn’t wear a mask at all? If it’s the latter, that doesn’t sound much like a Batman movie. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/82 "2013-09-09T16:09:50Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Out of curiosity, what did you think of THE AVENGERS, which was a massive success but presumably would’ve pushed all your least-favorite buttons? If the **success** of Avengers is not relevant to why it “would’ve pushed all your least-favorite buttons”, why even mention it? To answer the actual question, I though the acting was good (except for Gwyneth Paltrow) and the special effects were mostly well done. That movie was scripted and directed by Joss Whedon, who created “Firefly”, a series that showcased much of the gritty realism and rational uses of technology I have suggested would benefit the Batman/ Superman franchises. If Whedon took on the next Batman movie, it would help. He really needs to do Superman, too. If you see any contradictions in my criticisms of Nolan’s DKR and praise of “Avengers”, you should spell them out. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/83 "2013-09-09T16:19:13Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Are you criticizing the appearance of his mask, or saying he shouldn’t wear a mask at all? If it’s the latter, that doesn’t sound much like a Batman movie. As I said earlier, Batman should wear a black bandana, the same as Zorro, really, only with out the gaucho hat. If he wraps and ties it in such a way that the sides incidentally form some ear-looking folds, that’s alright. He doesn’t need a battle helmet … he’s already wearing a non-bulletproof, non-knife-proof suit and he refuses to use firearms (contrary, I believe to his original incarnation); and furthermore, he engages in fistfights with tougher, more skilled opponents instead of tying them up with some wire-rope gadget from his utility belt. If he stands on those principles, he doesn’t need a helmet. A bandana with eye holes is a mask. He should wear a mask, just not a silly mask. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/84 "2013-09-09T16:28:13Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > If the **success** of Avengers is not relevant to why it “would’ve pushed all your least-favorite buttons”, why even mention it? > > To answer the actual question, I though the acting was good (except for Gwyneth Paltrow) and the special effects were mostly well done. That movie was scripted and directed by Joss Whedon, who created “Firefly”, a series that showcased much of the gritty realism and rational uses of technology I have suggested would benefit the Batman/ Superman franchises. If Whedon took on the next Batman movie, it would help. He really needs to do Superman, too. If you see any contradictions in my criticisms of Nolan’s DKR and praise of “Avengers”, you should spell them out. Well, it’s much, much, _much_ less realistic than Batman in every single respect, including those specific aspects you criticized the Nolan movies for: [ridiculous costumes](http://marvel-movies.wikia.com/wiki/Steve_Rogers), [over-the-top science fiction vehicles](http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130705184635/disney/images/0/0a/Hellicarrier.jpg), and [characters refusing to use guns when a gun makes a lot more sense.](http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/130470/2884773-Jeremy-Renner-as-Hawkeye-in-The-Avengers-jeremy-renner-32910680-3200-2000.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/85 "2013-09-09T16:28:42Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > As I said earlier, Batman should wear a black bandana, the same as Zorro, really, only with out the gaucho hat. If he wraps and ties it in such a way that the sides incidentally form some ear-looking folds, that’s alright. He doesn’t need a battle helmet … he’s already wearing a non-bulletproof, non-knife-proof suit and he refuses to use firearms (contrary, I believe to his original incarnation); and furthermore, he engages in fistfights with tougher, more skilled opponents instead of tying them up with some wire-rope gadget from his utility belt. If he stands on those principles, he doesn’t need a helmet. > > A bandana with eye holes is a mask. He should wear a mask, just not a silly mask. So, how exactly is this character “Batman”? ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/86 "2013-09-09T16:41:15Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Is that a rhetorical question? Because, you know, sometimes people ask rhetorical questions just to be insulting. I’ll give you an answer, since you weren’t paying attention in Social Sciences class … the source of wealth is largely irrelevant; I don’t care if you worked your way up from the mail room or inherited billions from Daddy. What is important is the results. Did the wealth generate jobs at a factory? Good. Did it bribe foreign bureaucrats to overlook toxic poisoning of the environment? Bad. Did it get donated to a corrupt political leader who would grant you further privilege to amass an even greater fortune by skirting laws designed to protect investors? Bad. It’s not the money, it’s the owners of the money. Who’d wielding it and what is the outcome … that’s the rub. Which neither answers the question nor is it related in any way to your baseless assertion that all of life is a class struggle. Not that I would blame you for retreating from that position… ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/87 "2013-09-09T16:57:02Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > Which neither answers the question nor is it related in any way to your baseless assertion that all of life is a class struggle. Not that I would blame you for retreating from that position… Seems to me you were asking about poor people enriching themselves by their own merits. I won’t even quote that, it’s the last question in your boorish post. Since I don’t dispute that a poor man can gain wealth (does he struggle to do so? He’s moving up in class, is it easy? Is it a struggle?), nor do I care how the wealth was generated, I didn’t think my answer needed to address anything but that question. But, onward and upward … as to the real class struggle, I gather your argument is less with me and more sincerely with Marx, his opinions on Capitalism, Socialism, ownership of the means of production, Labor and political power. As I largely agree with Marx’s general theories, and he is so well documented and studied, I’d refer your accusation of class struggle being baseless to the available volumes written by and about him and Marxism in general. Baseless, I think not. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/88 "2013-09-09T17:01:31Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > It does work that way in governments with a good balance between a free economy and a safety net for the populace. Yes, people had to organize and fight back, but that was hardly a modern economy. Just the same as today in countries where the workers are paid next to nothing: they only get away with that because their goods are being paid for by the middle class in countries with a better balance of economic freedom and protection of the people. If they had to sell all their goods in their own nation, they could never get away with paying nothing for workers to assemble Nikes in some sweat shop and then charging $100 for them. People still have to organize and fight back, in part because since the 1970s (and especially thereafter) we’ve been losing all the ground that the working class gained through years of life-and-death (class) struggle. I hope this is reflected in our art. It often is. Similarly, terrible conditions prevail when people are prevented from organizing. Sometimes the repressive forces are international, such as US support for right-wing dictatorships. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/89 "2013-09-09T17:21:30Z")
People, we’re getting a little beyond the scope of a Cafe Society thread. Suggest you take the conversation about economics and ideology to Great Debates where it belongs. Thanks, **twickster** , Cafe Society moderator ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/90 "2013-09-09T17:25:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, it’s much, much, _much_ less realistic than Batman in every single respect, including those specific aspects you criticized the Nolan movies for: [ridiculous costumes](http://marvel-movies.wikia.com/wiki/Steve_Rogers), [over-the-top science fiction vehicles](http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130705184635/disney/images/0/0a/Hellicarrier.jpg), and [characters refusing to use guns when a gun makes a lot more sense.](http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/130470/2884773-Jeremy-Renner-as-Hawkeye-in-The-Avengers-jeremy-renner-32910680-3200-2000.jpg) > [@Miller](#): > > So, how exactly is this character “Batman”? I’ll answer the 2nd one first. When the bat crashes into the window after Bruce Wayne’s first harrowing night as a vigilante, and he decides to adopt the bat as a symbol of his dark, terrible quest, that’s how he’s Batman. He can change his hat. Regarding the costumes in Avengers, Ironman was a higher tech Robocop. Unlike Bruce Wayne who seems to want to throttle evil-doers with his bare hands, Tony Stark is willing to deck himself out in bullet-proof blaster equipped armor. Thor looks like a superior alien with Nordic fashion tastes and my only criticism would be Capt America, who really could have used some more of a push toward WW2 style and maybe away from the “wearing a flag” outfit. I would have approached Capt. America as having worn the Stars and Stripes only for the war-bond pep rallies, and reverting to purely utilitarian costume, with perhaps a nod to the original character being: a wrestler style mask, trimmed away from his jaw, maybe a good luck charm given to him by a good friend who was a sparing partner and ex-wrestler. Marvel and D.C. have ever been on different planets when it comes to technology and especially the influence of alien technology. Somehow, I can see the super high technology of the Marvel Universe handled better than Morgan Freeman invents Batmobile/ plane/ cycle. The characters and stories, IMO demand different handling of the tech and the costumes. Don’t even get me started on Spiderman. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/91 "2013-09-09T17:32:41Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Don’t even get me started on Spiderman. What’s wrong with Spider-Man? The newest movie literally shows him repainting a wetsuit as his Spider-Suit. ---
**Author:** ![FordTaurusSHO94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f07891/32.png) [@FordTaurusSHO94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordTaurusSHO94)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/92 "2013-09-09T18:32:07Z")
The Tumbler and Batpod are real world vehicles. Watch the special features on the home releases. I’d like one of each. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/93 "2013-09-09T18:35:00Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > I’ll answer the 2nd one first. When the bat crashes into the window after Bruce Wayne’s first harrowing night as a vigilante, and he decides to adopt the bat as a symbol of his dark, terrible quest, that’s how he’s Batman. He can change his hat. Okay, let’s assume that we’re not showing his origin story. I’m watching a movie about a guy who wears a bandana, instead of a cape and cowl. Uses a gun, instead of martial arts. And he kills villains indiscriminately. How is that character Batman? You’ve removed all the superficial elements (the costume) _and_ all the core character elements (his central moral ethos that defines all of his actions as a superhero) that define the character. Why even bother calling him Batman, at this point? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/94 "2013-09-09T18:37:27Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Okay, let’s assume that we’re not showing his origin story. I’m watching a movie about a guy who wears a bandana, instead of a cape and cowl. Uses a gun, instead of martial arts. And he kills villains indiscriminately. > > How is that character Batman? You’ve removed all the superficial elements (the costume) _and_ all the core character elements (his central moral ethos that defines all of his actions as a superhero) that define the character. Why even bother calling him Batman, at this point? Right, that’s not Batman, that’s the Shadow. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/95 "2013-09-09T20:02:17Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Okay, let’s assume that we’re not showing his origin story. I’m watching a movie about a guy who wears a bandana, instead of a cape and cowl. Uses a gun, instead of martial arts. And he kills villains indiscriminately. > > How is that character Batman? You’ve removed all the superficial elements (the costume) _and_ all the core character elements (his central moral ethos that defines all of his actions as a superhero) that define the character. Why even bother calling him Batman, at this point? A bandana that covers exactly the same part of your face that rubbery mask covers is not a huge shift in images. The cape is a personal peeve, I think capes are mostly ridiculous unless you’re cover identity is a magician or a vampire. Batman originally had a gun, much like the Phantom. Never said he doesn’t know Martial Arts. Killing villains? I’m for it, if they are too much trouble to capture, of if they just piss him off past his limit (Bane … kill him). Batman in black is a natural. I personally prefer “The Batman”, especially since he has a compact black parachute and also a silent para-glider, also in black ( or he should). I wouldn’t mind if he left off the bat-webbing look to the glider, or chute … kind of unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/96 "2013-09-09T20:21:20Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > A bandana that covers exactly the same part of your face that rubbery mask covers is not a huge shift in images. The cape is a personal peeve, I think capes are mostly ridiculous unless you’re cover identity is a magician or a vampire. Are you serious? It’s a massive shift in image. You’re removing the single most distinct aspect of the character’s entire look. > [@](#): > > Batman originally had a gun, much like the Phantom. Yes. For a little over a year, following his original appearance in 1939, Batman carried a gun. For the remaining _seventy three years_ that this character has been in continuous publication, his opposition to guns and refusal to take a life have been fundamental aspects of his character. But yeah, there’s about twenty or so so stories from the Depression where Batman uses a gun. Clearly, that’s the definitive version of the character. > [@](#): > > Batman in black is a natural. I personally prefer “The Batman”, especially since he has a compact black parachute and also a silent para-glider, also in black ( or he should). I wouldn’t mind if he left off the bat-webbing look to the glider, or chute … kind of unnecessary. So, your Batman doesn’t look like Batman, doesn’t use Batman’s techniques, doesn’t use Batman’s gadgets, and doesn’t follow Batman’s ethical beliefs. Again, how is this character Batman? ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/97 "2013-09-09T20:27:09Z")
I think he has better techniques, gadgets, and a better image, because it’s not mired in constant repetition of cliche, albeit iconic, baggage. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/98 "2013-09-09T20:30:21Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > I think he has better techniques, gadgets, and a better image, because it’s not mired in constant repetition of cliche, albeit iconic, baggage. That is, perhaps, a good argument for not doing more Batman stories. It’s not a good argument for creating an entirely new character and calling him Batman. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/99 "2013-09-09T20:51:32Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Seems to me you were asking about poor people enriching themselves by their own merits. I won’t even quote that, it’s the last question in your boorish post. Since I don’t dispute that a poor man can gain wealth (does he struggle to do so? He’s moving up in class, is it easy? Is it a struggle?), nor do I care how the wealth was generated, I didn’t think my answer needed to address anything but that question. > > But, onward and upward … as to the real class struggle, I gather your argument is less with me and more sincerely with Marx, his opinions on Capitalism, Socialism, ownership of the means of production, Labor and political power. As I largely agree with Marx’s general theories, and he is so well documented and studied, I’d refer your accusation of class struggle being baseless to the available volumes written by and about him and Marxism in general. Baseless, I think not. Yes, baseless. The fact that you believe the same baseless assertions that Marx did doesn’t make them any less baseless, despite what your social science professors may have told you. As for boorish, well…pot, meet kettle. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887/100 "2013-09-09T20:55:07Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > People still have to organize and fight back, in part because since the 1970s (and especially thereafter) we’ve been losing all the ground that the working class gained through years of life-and-death (class) struggle. I hope this is reflected in our art. It often is. > > Similarly, terrible conditions prevail when people are prevented from organizing. Sometimes the repressive forces are international, such as US support for right-wing dictatorships. We have lost ground, but not to some fat-cat rich guy JP Morgan caricature. Instead, we’ve lost ground due to the economic realities of other countries wanting a piece of the pie. That IS different because you can’t blame some rich guy for it: he didn’t force those other countries to undercut our prices, and if he were to ignore the cheaper costs in those countries, he’d be fired, because most big companies aren’t owned by individuals anymore but are controlled by stockholders. Going on strike for higher wages nowadays will only send more jobs overseas. You should be encouraging wage strikes in India and China. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-series-finally-dimmed-the-shine-off-batman-for-me/667887.md?page=6)