# The Dark Knight (spoilers) -- I hate this trope **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 29, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366 "2009-06-29T17:58:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/21 "2009-06-29T22:20:34Z")
This movie would have been wildly improved by Batman, in response to the Joker’s lecture about the proper way to interrogate someone, to horribly shatter one of the Joker’s appendages. “Don’t kill.” doesn’t mean “Don’t cripple for life.” after all. ---
**Author:** ![johnspartan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a183cd/32.png) [@johnspartan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnspartan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/22 "2009-06-29T22:24:52Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I can’t answer the rest of your questions, but I can attempt this one. The Joker is supposed to have made Batman question his choice to never kill anyone. In fact, that’s the Joker’s whole point of existence. He wants Batman to kill him, as Batman is already nearly crazy, and killing someone would put him over the edge. The Joker is essentially the personification of Batman’s “evil side.” > > The problem I see with the movie is that Batman’s no-kill policy hadn’t been established long enough to make his wondering about killing the Joker have the right impact. Right, well, he doesn’t kill Ra’s al Ghul, but he lets him go knowing he’s going to crash and fall in a pretty gruesome death. AND it’s in a situation that B@man pretty specifically set up… B@man _made_ the train crash. So, we’ve already established maybe he wouldn’t push Joker over a cliff… but he’d put him in a car and push the car off the cliff. If that’s a distinction that eases his conscience, that’s fine, but it’s hardly a harrowing moral dilemma. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/23 "2009-06-29T23:21:16Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Well, first you have to understand that the Joker _is_ the trope. He created it. He is the original inhuman psychopath one step ahead of you. Things all got soft in the 50’s comics, but he started out that way. > > Second, many of his moves make a lot of sense if you understand that he basically _is_ Batman. Whatever Batman is, he’s the equal and opposite. Yes, the movie appears realistic - but make no mistake: Batman is a superhero and so is The Joker. Both of them take punishment that should put any normal human being down for good, and then they get up and ask for more. Fundamentally, it’s a comic book movie and despite the brutalism, still uses that origin to no end. > > The Joker actually did plan things pretty well, however. > > (a) Exactly. The Jokers essential non-super “super-power” (other than “NOT DYING” as long as Batman is around) is that he completely understands people. He gets into everyone’s head and knows everything about them very easy. He predicts what kind of moves they will make under given conditions, and this movie uses that ability in simple but eficient ways. He also benefits from having inside sources which know what procedures are going to be used. > > (b) See above. The Joker does know his boys will turn on him, and exactly how and when to act in order to make sure they stay loyal or die before betraying him. > > (c) He wasn’t trying to kill Harvey. He calculated this was all just a plan to trick him into coming out into the open and acted in order to do that. He forced the truck into a bad situation, stripped any defenders, had a plan to deal with air cover, and much heavier weapons than they had. And this was for a plan which intentionally ended with him getting caught. > > (d) Guess the Joker got him. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/24 "2009-06-29T23:25:16Z")
Hooray for **RickJay**. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/25 "2009-06-30T00:46:17Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. What the hell is Scarecrow doing in this movie? He seems to be thrown in so randomly. It’s to establish the Joker. The Joker, as the sort of King of Crazy, has all of the insane folks in the city working for him. Scarecrow, as an established insane Gothamite, is therefore one of the many folks working for the Joker. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/26 "2009-06-30T00:51:00Z")
> [@johnspartan](#): > > B@man … B@man Dude, seriously? ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/27 "2009-06-30T00:52:35Z")
> [@johnspartan](#): > > 1. What the hell is Scarecrow doing in this movie? He seems to be thrown in so randomly. It was a well-written and interesting character in the first one, and now he’s thrown in in a way that only seems like the second scene with the first one explaining it somehow on the cutting room floor. It’s basically "How do we give a wink and a nod to people who liked the first one? Well Scarecrow’s still alive, let’s throw him in a parking lot small-batch drug deal that Batman busts up. I’m sure no one will wonder what he’s doing there, or why Batman is interested in this one small nickel-and-dime deal then goes back to fighting roving painted lunatics. This is something Batman comic fans have been denied and clamored for for years: continuity between films. The Scarecrow appearing is at minimum an acknowledgment of the first movie. It’s fun to have that bleed over, because it’s artificial that a villain could be so totally removed from his world as to not warrant a single appearance (unless dead). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/28 "2009-06-30T01:35:20Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > b) The Joker keeps “hiring” henchmen by killing their bosses and saying “You’re working for me now.” That’s a good way to get fragged instantly. As far as we know, the Joker has no special powers that would help him prevent this. Equally good way to get fragged: being Batman. Sure, he’s got super-secrit ninja skillz and stuff, but there’s no way he should have been able to take out 20 thugs down at the docks in the first movie, or tie up a couple dozen SWAT officers in the second. You just gotta let some shit slide. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/29 "2009-06-30T01:46:32Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Well, first you have to understand that the Joker _is_ the trope. He created it. He is the original inhuman psychopath one step ahead of you. Things all got soft in the 50’s comics, but he started out that way. Well, if we’re throwing around [TVTropes](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeinfeldIsUnfunny) memes…well, yeah. The movie turns as many tropes inside out as it does those it perpetuates. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/30 "2009-06-30T07:01:30Z")
> [@johnspartan](#): > > 1. All that running around must make him breathless. Enough already with Bruce Wayne / Batman heavy breathing. Is he a superhero or a phone sex operator? It was especially silly when Batman was still using his “Batman” voice when he was talking to Alfred, alone, in their new batcave. That looked soooo stupid–he knows who you are, Bruce. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/31 "2009-06-30T07:54:10Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > It was especially silly when Batman was still using his “Batman” voice when he was talking to Alfred, alone, in their new batcave. That looked soooo stupid–he knows who you are, Bruce. He was in character. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/32 "2009-06-30T08:02:34Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > He was in character. > > -FrL- Didn’t make it look any less ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/33 "2009-06-30T08:08:28Z")
I want to point out that the Dark Knight version of The Joker is not the comic book version (well, OK, they did do a version with that Joker after the film). As fantastic as Heath’s acting is and the direction, etc- that’s not the Joker. The Joker was a criminal mastermind, who _also_ was a crazed sociopath with a deranged sense of humor. Heath’s Joker only had the crazed sociopath part- done very very well, true. Actually Jack Nicholson’s Joker is more true to the comics. Note that the Joker changed many times during his nearly 70 year run, so no one Joker is “right”. We’re so awed by Heath’s performance that many now think that IS The Joker, whereas that’s really just one fairly minor variation. And although the Joker from the comics can’t really “die” he certainly can be caught and put away. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/34 "2009-06-30T08:27:37Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > It was especially silly when Batman was still using his “Batman” voice when he was talking to Alfred, alone, in their new batcave. That looked soooo stupid–he knows who you are, Bruce. I think it’s a feature of the suit that there is a voice changer that automatically lowers his voice by 3 octaves whenever he puts it on. ---
**Author:** ![cactus\_waltz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@cactus\_waltz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cactus_waltz)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/35 "2009-06-30T09:55:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Joker was a criminal mastermind, who _also_ was a crazed sociopath with a deranged sense of humor. Heath’s Joker only had the crazed sociopath part- done very very well, true. Actually Jack Nicholson’s Joker is more true to the comics. Well. You have the pen trick, the nurse costume, “ **s** laughter is the best medicine”. Heath’s Joker is certainly less \*jovial \*than Jack’s and laughs a lot less, but I think his sense of humor is there. I also got the impression that a lot of his conniving was a joke to him. The ferry boat set-up, for example. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/36 "2009-06-30T10:17:04Z")
> [@ArrMatey](#): > > This was the bit that bothered me the most. The fact that Joker’s credo seems to be ‘plans don’t work, chaos works’, and yet, everything he does (and is succesful at) was obviously very meticulously planned. It was sort-of a blaring error for me who’s always felt that while J is crazy, he’s not ‘I’m just going to let things happen and they’ll work out’ crazy. He is, to me, a mastermind planner. It’s like that scene in the Pirates of the Carribean films where one of the officers turns to the Commodore (IIRC) after Jack Sparrow escapes again and is like “do you think he plans it all out or just makes it up as he goes along?” > [@acetylene](#): > > One I’ll add: Harvey Dent went from Mr. Law-and-order to cold-blooded killer just a little too quickly for me. Well, unlike say, Anakin Skywalker who just went from zero to killing small children with his lightsaber in 6 seconds for really no apparent reason, Dent lost his fiance and half his face. And he went after the people who he felt were responsible, not random innocents. Look, if you are going to watch a movie about comic book characters, you have to expect a certain amount of over the top unrealistic stuff. Even if it is shot in a gritty and realistic style. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/37 "2009-06-30T12:46:41Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > Didn’t make it look any less ridiculous. Sorry, I guess there’s not a “dry tone” key on my keyboard. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/38 "2009-06-30T13:08:15Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > It was especially silly when Batman was still using his “Batman” voice when he was talking to Alfred, alone, in their new batcave. That looked soooo stupid–he knows who you are, Bruce. Not at all. Once he puts on that suit he’s Batman not Bruce Wayne. He’s not going to break character. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/39 "2009-06-30T13:35:31Z")
As numerous comics (and at least some of the movies) have made perfectly clear, Bruce Wayne is the persona. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/40 "2009-06-30T14:41:31Z")
Oh what an amazing coincedence, I was thinking of making a blog post about the Dark Knight. > **[The Dark Knight](http://scriptcleaners.blogspot.com/2009/06/dark-knight.html)** > > The Dark Knight. When this movie hit the theaters, a lot of people were calling it the best “comic book movie” made and talked about how it ... I liked the movie, but I kept hearing this buzz on how awesome it was and how it broke new ground in the genre. I didn’t think it did that, personally. Comments, angry fist shaking, and dog poop boxes filled with poop, set on fire and left on my doorstep are welcome on the post. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366.md?page=3)