# The Dark Knight (spoilers) -- I hate this trope **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 29, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366 "2009-06-29T17:58:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/41 "2009-06-30T14:45:23Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > It was especially silly when Batman was still using his “Batman” voice when he was talking to Alfred, alone, in their new batcave. That looked soooo stupid–he knows who you are, Bruce. The Bat voice sounds a little stupid whenever he is standing right in front of someone talking to them. Not to mention if we can recognize that Batman is Christian Bale in a Bat mask, how come people like Harvey Dent and Gordon can’t recognize that it’s Gothems most prominant playboy billionare, Bruce Wayne? ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/42 "2009-06-30T15:03:26Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > The Bat voice sounds a little stupid whenever he is standing right in front of someone talking to them. > > Not to mention if we can recognize that Batman is Christian Bale in a Bat mask, how come people like Harvey Dent and Gordon can’t recognize that it’s Gothems most prominant playboy billionare, Bruce Wayne? I’d say with that you would just have to buy into the mystique of secret identities for comic book characters. How come Oliver Queen or Clark Kent aren’t immediately recognized as Green Arrow and Superman? Well, that’s just how it is. It’s been addressed before, but if you talk about it _too_ much, you kind of ruin it. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/43 "2009-06-30T15:26:26Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Not to mention if we can recognize that Batman is Christian Bale in a Bat mask, how come people like Harvey Dent and Gordon can’t recognize that it’s Gothems most prominant playboy billionare, Bruce Wayne? Because we’re part of the movie-going audience, and \*get to watch \*as Christian Bale puts on the mask? Or is this a trick question of some kind? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/44 "2009-06-30T15:34:46Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > Oh what an amazing coincedence, I was thinking of making a blog post about the Dark Knight. > > [Script Cleaners: The Dark Knight](http://scriptcleaners.blogspot.com/2009/06/dark-knight.html) > > I liked the movie, but I kept hearing this buzz on how awesome it was and how it broke new ground in the genre. I didn’t think it did that, personally. > > Comments, angry fist shaking, and dog poop boxes filled with poop, set on fire and left on my doorstep are welcome on the post. From that link: > [@](#): > > …from what I understand they needed to do it (ETA: The hospital explosion scene) in one take, the explosions didn’t correspond with his button mashing on the remote detonator, and he ad-libbed the rest. Does anyone know if this is true? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/45 "2009-06-30T15:36:41Z")
It is a fantasy movie. There are no super villains . There are no gangs where the members will die in thousands following orders. So his voice does not matter. It is just a fun comic book movie. I thought no body could do a more interesting job than Nicholson did. But they took it into a new direction. I liked it. Every Karate movie used the same plot to some degree. The hero could wipe out a hundred minions and then have a horrible tough time with one skinny or out of shape super villain in the end. It is a movie and a good one. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/46 "2009-06-30T16:03:53Z")
While I liked the Dark Knight OK I am probably one of the few people who liked Jack Nicholson way better as the Joker, and liked the Burton films better. I also don’t like Bale much. The best part of these new movies is a) the car, the clothes, and the special effects, and b) Commissioner Gordon. I agree with pretty much everybody about the essential dichotomy of the Joker in this movie, and it doesn’t sit too well with me either. Still, it was a fun movie. I didn’t see how it was the big deal everyone made it out to be, though. ---
**Author:** ![satoridt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@satoridt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/satoridt)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/47 "2009-06-30T16:10:19Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/48 "2009-06-30T16:16:13Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > This is something Batman comic fans have been denied and clamored for for years: continuity between films. The Scarecrow appearing is at minimum an acknowledgment of the first movie. It’s fun to have that bleed over, because it’s artificial that a villain could be so totally removed from his world as to not warrant a single appearance (unless dead). Exactly. The inclusion of the Scarecrow was fantastic because it established Batman doing what Batman _does_ - putting away the same costumed criminals over and over. It seems to be non-comic fans who are confused by that scene, but it was a very nice nod to what “actual” superheroics are like. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/49 "2009-06-30T16:20:00Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > The Bat voice sounds a little stupid whenever he is standing right in front of someone talking to them. > > Not to mention if we can recognize that Batman is Christian Bale in a Bat mask, how come people like Harvey Dent and Gordon can’t recognize that it’s Gothems most prominant playboy billionare, Bruce Wayne? Because even to people who know him best, the Bruce Wayne persona is calculated to make him the _last_ person you would think wuold be Batman. The point to Bruce is that he is an over-the-top narcissist playboy who only cares about himself and throwing around his money. Even the philanthropic measures he does are designed to showcaes his money and not him. When people see Batman, they see the armor and the mask. Those few times that people did look beneath the mask (usually love interests) they saw Bruce almost immediately. The rest of the time when people see Bruce they see money and when they see Batman they see the mask and never think to connect the two. ---
**Author:** ![Jihi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jihi/32/17768_2.png) [@Jihi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jihi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/50 "2009-06-30T16:23:33Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Does anyone know if this is true? I’ve seen this mentioned in a couple of places, (Ledger ad-libbing the scene outside the hospital just before the explosions go off.) But I’ve never been able to find a direct cite for it. I remember on the documentaries on the DVD that they spent quite awhile showing how the the gutted building was lined with real explosives and they only had one chance at the shot. I know he really was standing on the street when the explosions started, so it seems plausible at least. ---
**Author:** ![johnspartan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a183cd/32.png) [@johnspartan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnspartan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/51 "2009-06-30T17:00:18Z")
> [@shy\_guy](#): > > Exactly. > > The inclusion of the Scarecrow was fantastic because it established Batman doing what Batman _does_ - putting away the same costumed criminals over and over. It seems to be non-comic fans who are confused by that scene, but it was a very nice nod to what “actual” superheroics are like. But he’s not doing anything particularly Scarecrowish or even villainish. He’s practically buying a dimebag off of some high school kids. And as for "wow, it’s so inventive to have him working for Joker, isn’t he working for Ra’s Al Ghul in the first one? ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/52 "2009-06-30T17:23:24Z")
Huh…I happened to see it this weekend as well, and got berated for my Facebook posting of how I found it highly overrated. Glad to see I’m not the only one who didn’t fawn over this flick… ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/53 "2009-06-30T17:41:02Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > a) Towards the end of the movie, the Joker admits that he doesn’t need or want the mountain of cash. So why kill the various henchmen during the first heist? Because it’s fun, I guess? Or just to establish to the audience that he’s a psychopathic bad ass? Guns and explosives are cheap…not free he did need some startup cash. But yes I think that scene was a little B.S. just to establish how ‘crazy’ the Joker was going to be. > [@](#): > > b) The Joker keeps “hiring” henchmen by killing their bosses and saying “You’re working for me now.” That’s a good way to get fragged instantly. As far as we know, the Joker has no special powers that would help him prevent this. Really? Mob bosses did that all the time. Clear out the leadership and beat up/kill anyone that didn’t acknowledge the new order. Plus it’s not really clear how much of his army are paid, recruited or attracted to the Joker’s cult of personality. > [@](#): > > c) The Joker’s big plot to kill Harvey Dent involved chasing him with a semi loaded with automatic weapons and RPGs. This plan depended critically on not a single cop or SWAT team member returning fire while the Joker and his men remained full exposed for a five minute chase scene. I don’t think the Joker was even serious about killing Dent. He wanted to get caught and have Batman choose between Dent and his girlfriend. Also the Joker only exposed himself after most of the support SWAT team were smashed into the river by the dump trucks. > [@](#): > > (In fact, just about every Joker scheme depended heavily on the Gotham police being completely incompetent, up to and including ignoring the guy in a police uniform whose face is completely covered in grease paint.) He’s not wearing paint in that scene. > [@](#): > > And this plot, apparently, was just part of a bigger plot to get captured and then escape with the Hong Kong financier. A plot which makes \* no sense \* unless you are protected by the omniscient psychopath script clause. That’s just the way he rolls baby…ok I admit it’s a ridiculous plan that shouldn’t have worked. > [@](#): > > d) Probably my biggest complaint is the Gotham Hospital explosion. This was a big explosion. Really big. So how did we go from hordes of police emptying the hospital to the scene where the Joker wanders outside to an apparently deserted street and detonates the blast without being shot on sight? Where are the police? How did no one in the hospital notice the tons of explosives that it would have taken to cause the blast? I think at that point we’re supposed to believe everyone had cleared out aside from the bus that the Joker had already hijacked. > [@](#): > > ``` > I'm also not sure how the Joker rigged the ferries so that their engines failed, radios failed, and (apparently) the cell phones of everyone on board failed all at the same time. There might have been an explanation of that, but I was no longer paying close attention by that point. > > ``` What good would cell phones had done at that point? Nobody could come and rescue them without the Joker blowing the boats. I guess they could have contacted the other boats and begged them not to blow them up but how would they have gotten their numbers? > [@](#): > > e. Finally, how does the Joker manage to last more than 10 seconds against the Batman in the climactic fight? On one side you have monastery-trained fighting machine in state of the art battle armor who can take out six men in a fair fight and on the other we have a guy with no apparent enhancements. And whatever happened to the first movie’s “I can’t kill you but I don’t have to save you.” ethic? The Joker only attacks Batman once he’s distracted. He also uses this tactic earlier when Batman shows up at the party. Plus Batman is hampered by that stupid ‘cell phone radar’ thing that seems to make it harder to see to me. Also Batman is brand new. His ethic is no doubt evolving and changing. > [@](#): > > My complaints all boil down to this: how does a nutcase who insists on wandering around with grease paint all over his face manage to flawlessly pull off heist after heist, arrange unstoppable kidnappings and assassinations, and mine buildings with (apparently) tons of high explosives and gasoline? I can buy the Joker in the Tim Burton version. The style of the movie was Comic Book Noir, so you could buy the unbelievable. The style of the Dark Knight was, as far as I could tell, Grim Reality. Hill Street Blues, or maybe The Wire. Batman (and the Joker) doesn’t work as well in this style. Hill Street Blues? The Wire? You must have been watching another movie then. Die Hard was closer in line with real action then either of these movies. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/54 "2009-06-30T19:15:46Z")
> [@johnspartan](#): > > But he’s not doing anything particularly Scarecrowish or even villainish. He’s practically buying a dimebag off of some high school kids. > > And as for "wow, it’s so inventive to have him working for Joker, isn’t he working for Ra’s Al Ghul in the first one? He wasn’t working for the Joker. He was just a criminal losing ground because of the Batman. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/55 "2009-06-30T20:08:43Z")
> [@](#): > > I liked the movie, but I kept hearing this buzz on how awesome it was and how it broke new ground in the genre. I didn’t think it did that, personally. Honestly, I don’t think _The Dark Knight_ broke new ground, either. What it did was follow very well in the footsteps of _Batman Begins_, which did break new ground. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/56 "2009-07-01T17:35:53Z")
I hate this trope, too – I’ve seen it used too often in **Seven** , **Speed** , **In the Line of Fire** , and countless other flicks. It’s one reason that **The Day of the Jackal** is my favorite thriller – the titular Jackal _isn’t_ omniscient and omnipotent, and after you see him inventively and persistently overcoming the obstacles set in his path you perversely find yourself cheering for him as much as for the Commisair who’s trying to track him down and capture him. the Joker’s ability to anticipate _everyone_ and somehow get huge quantities of explosives\* into situations without detection is simply absurd. And I _still_ don’t understand why the Joker had to get himself captured to spring his Dent-or-girlfriend dilemma trap. \*I don’t recall the Joker ever being so addicted to explosives in either the comics or any previous movie, but in **the Dark Knight** it’s practically his hallmark method. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/57 "2009-07-01T19:29:24Z")
I wanna say too… While Heath’s performance as the Joker was awesome, and really encapsulated the character I don’t really think it was the drop-dead (bad choice of words…) acting job of the year. He did well and everything but keep in mind that he was going against the likes of Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder. Since HBO is playing Dark Knight all of the time I notice this the more I watch it. He was good, but not BEST. ACTING. EVER!!! ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/58 "2009-07-01T19:54:00Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > I wanna say too… > > While Heath’s performance as the Joker was awesome, and really encapsulated the character I don’t really think it was the drop-dead (bad choice of words…) acting job of the year. He did well and everything but keep in mind that he was going against the likes of Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder. > > Since HBO is playing Dark Knight all of the time I notice this the more I watch it. He was good, but not BEST. ACTING. EVER!!! I have to agree with this. I found myself missing Nicholson (“Where does he get all those wonderful toys?”). Jack seemed to be having a lot more fun being the Joker. Heath went for intense murderous whacko instead. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/59 "2009-07-01T19:56:15Z")
But wouldn’t someone who was having fun be totally out of place in the Nolans’ Gotham? ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366/60 "2009-07-01T20:10:03Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > But wouldn’t someone who was having fun be totally out of place in the Nolans’ Gotham? Well, yes, but that includes the movie goer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-spoilers-i-hate-this-trope/501366.md?page=4)