# The Dark Knight: unqualified masterpiece **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 17, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857 "2008-07-17T18:34:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/61 "2008-07-19T14:24:51Z")
[QUOTE=Love Rhombus] I didn’t buy that Gordon died at all, though. [/QUOTE] :eek: [sub]They _can’t_ kill Commissioner Gordon![/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Girl\_Next\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@Girl\_Next\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girl_Next_Door)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/62 "2008-07-19T14:57:03Z")
[QUOTE=Gorgon Heap] For simplicity’s sake, I’ll simply say I found it frightening (in the OMG factor) and depressing. And Ledger really, really did nail this part. Damned shame about the kid. [/QUOTE] I echo this review, with the exception of the “never seen any of his good movies” part (seriously, rent “Brokeback Mountain”. It’s not what you think and Heath Ledger is extradordinary in it) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/63 "2008-07-19T15:37:48Z")
Saw it yesterday with a group from work. Hated it. It was brutal and boring and pretentious. Huge swaths of dialog with characters bluntly stating their feelings and motivations. Ridiculous false moral dilemmas. The final battle with the Joker was a total anti-climax. There were a couple of good points. The bank heist at the beginning was clever. Heath Ledger was great, poor guy. But other than than … a vast wasteland of wooden performances and repetitive beatdowns. \*Ironman \* was better written, better acted, more exciting, more fun, and more insightful. Despite all it’s growling and grittiness I found _The Dark Knight_ to be, when all was said and done, surprisingly naive. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/64 "2008-07-19T15:45:49Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] Huge swaths of dialog with characters bluntly stating their feelings and motivations. [/QUOTE] I liked the movie a lot, but that aspect did bother me. The movie sort of hits viewers over the head with the points it’s making. A bit more subtlety would have been better. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/65 "2008-07-19T15:52:44Z")
I thought it was a pretty good movie, but not great. I agree with **spoke** and **Pochacho** , and I also felt that it seemed overly rushed at times (strange, for such a long movie) – the scene with the mayor’s speech and the immediate aftermath being a great example of that. (And Batman’s desire to accede to the Joker and hang up the cowl basically seemed to come out of nowhere, or at least Bale didn’t fully realize that arc.) Heath Ledger was spectacular, though. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/66 "2008-07-19T16:57:43Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Naw- Lucius ain’t quitting. I’m not sure Two-Face is really dead. I’m pretty sure that the Scarecrow we saw at first ISN’T The Scarescrow- either some common criminal in Scarecrow disguise or just maybe The Joker himself. [/QUOTE] When Batman pulls off the Scarecrow’s mask, it was Cillian Murphy underneath, so it was definitely The Scarecrow. I agree with your other two points. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/67 "2008-07-19T17:05:52Z")
[QUOTE=SisterCoyote] When Batman pulls off the Scarecrow’s mask, it was Cillian Murphy underneath, so it was definitely The Scarecrow. [/QUOTE] That opening really made Scarecrow seem like a two-bit hood. (Which I didn’t like, since I’ve always thought Scarecrow was one of the best villains the Batman comics produced.) ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/68 "2008-07-19T18:12:16Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] That opening really made Scarecrow seem like a two-bit hood. (Which I didn’t like, since I’ve always thought Scarecrow was one of the best villains the Batman comics produced.) [/QUOTE] I agree, except I _think_ there was a bigger plot laying underneath (see my speculation on the first page, and we already know that Scarecrow worked for the League of Shadows). Also, Scarecrow himself wasn’t really a master villain in the first movie, so I read that sequence as him making steps toward what he’ll become. When I think of Scarecrow, I always think of not Batman but _Sandman_, and the sequence where John Dee is escaping Arkham. I think he’s a fascinating character. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/69 "2008-07-19T19:16:03Z")
[QUOTE=SisterCoyote] I agree, except I _think_ there was a bigger plot laying underneath (see my speculation on the first page, and we already know that Scarecrow worked for the League of Shadows). [/QUOTE] _reads speculation_ Hm, possible. I could certainly see it. Given the amateur vigilante Batmans in the movie and some of the underlying topics raised in this movie, I could see something of a merging of The Dark Knight Returns and your idea (i.e. Batman decides that he has to take over Gotham and be the saving tyrant.) If they did so, I don’t think they’d do it until at least a fourth movie in the new series. If I was writing such a thing, I’d use the next movie as set up–introduce Harley Quinn as a doctor at Arkham with the Joker corrupting her so she goes out and does things as he commands. As Batman investigates, he discovers the backing of the League. This would give us a new actor to play the Joker but not have a lot of screen time, so it wouldn’t be as necessary for him to compare to the Ledger immediately–maybe only even be a shadowy portfolio for most of it. Of course a lot of that is just wanting Harley Quinn as the next villain. 😃 The movie after that would then be Batman versus the League straight on–though it wouldn’t be as good as The Dark Knight Returns unless Superman was in it. Pity that Singer messed up that franchise. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/70 "2008-07-19T19:45:17Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] _reads speculation_ Hm, possible. I could certainly see it. Given the amateur vigilante Batmans in the movie and some of the underlying topics raised in this movie, I could see something of a merging of The Dark Knight Returns and your idea (i.e. Batman decides that he has to take over Gotham and be the saving tyrant.) If they did so, I don’t think they’d do it until at least a fourth movie in the new series. [/quote] Hm. I wasn’t thinking that so much, although now…must…ponder…further… 🙂 > [@](#): > > If I was writing such a thing, I’d use the next movie as set up–introduce Harley Quinn as a doctor at Arkham with the Joker corrupting her so she goes out and does things as he commands. As Batman investigates, he discovers the backing of the League. This would give us a new actor to play the Joker but not have a lot of screen time, so it wouldn’t be as necessary for him to compare to the Ledger immediately–maybe only even be a shadowy portfolio for most of it. > > Of course a lot of that is just wanting Harley Quinn as the next villain. 😃 Intriguing idea. Of course, I’m not all that familiar with Quinn. > [@](#): > > The movie after that would then be Batman versus the League straight on–though it wouldn’t be as good as The Dark Knight Returns unless Superman was in it. Pity that Singer messed up that franchise. Not to mention – who would they get to play Ollie? Although I have to admit that I _like_ the idea of the Nolans writing and directing a Green Arrow franchise. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/71 "2008-07-19T22:13:26Z")
Just a couple of reality checks re:misconceptions that seem to have taken hold in this thread: \*\* —Regarding Batman’s voice:\*\*\* yes, it was the same in the first movie.\* **—Regarding the length:** _it was only 10 minutes longer than the first one._ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/72 "2008-07-19T22:19:05Z")
Whatever Nolan does, let’s just hope to God he continues to have the good sense to keep you know who out of the franchise. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/73 "2008-07-19T22:20:52Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] **—Regarding the length:** _it was only 10 minutes longer than the first one._ [/QUOTE] So? It _felt_ too long – the actual running time is irrelevant. The uneven pacing and numerous should-be endings resulted in a film that felt significantly longer than the first. ---
**Author:** ![ZebraShaSha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/eada6e/32.png) [@ZebraShaSha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZebraShaSha)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/74 "2008-07-19T22:25:12Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Whatever Nolan does, let’s just hope to God he continues to have the good sense to keep you know who out of the franchise. [/QUOTE] Voldermort? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/75 "2008-07-19T22:59:11Z")
[QUOTE=Red Barchetta] the actual running time is irrelevant [/QUOTE] Awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/76 "2008-07-19T23:05:57Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] Awesome. [/QUOTE] Why? What else do you think people mean when they say a “movie is too long”? ---
**Author:** ![BooBoo316](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e0b2c6/32.png) [@BooBoo316](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BooBoo316)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/77 "2008-07-19T23:06:06Z")
[QUOTE=ZebraShaSha] Voldermort? [/QUOTE] Don’t say his name! Saw it today and loved it. Quick thoughts: I didn’t notice how long it was until it was over. Heath Ledger is the MAN. His Joker was perfect, easily the best performance in the film. I have no idea how they are going to top this one. Next villain? Catwoman is my guess after the previously mentioned quip about the suit being safe from cats. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/78 "2008-07-19T23:24:14Z")
[QUOTE=ZebraShaSha] Voldermort? [/QUOTE] Even worse. I was referring to [ahem] the R-word. ---
**Author:** ![Hugh\_Jass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4da419/32.png) [@Hugh\_Jass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hugh_Jass)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/79 "2008-07-19T23:45:52Z")
Anyone notice it was Anthony Michael Hall playing the reporter? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2008, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857/80 "2008-07-20T00:34:58Z")
Yep, I noticed that. Wish he had a bigger part. As for the R-word… C’mon! Batman without the R-guy would be like Captain America without Bucky. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-knight-unqualified-masterpiece/456857.md?page=5)