# The "Dark Phoenix" phenomenon - when good characters go bad. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 7, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236 "2009-01-07T16:57:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/1 "2009-01-07T16:57:28Z")
For those in the Cafe Society who might not ever have been comic book geeks, one of the original X-Men was a girl named Jean Grey, who used the codename “Marvel Girl.” During the mid-70s revamp of the series, Marvel Girl’s powers were significantly boosted (to cosmic godlike levels) and she used the codename “Phoenix.” But being a mere mortal, having godlike abilities proved too much for her to cope with and they drove her insane, causing her to become the villainous “Dark Phoenix”, and a deadly threat whom her former team-mates had to deal with.\* Anyway, what longtime, solidly established as ‘good guy’ characters get the Dark Phoenix treatment - turned into bad guys? Not characters who were secretly bad guys all along, but people who switched alignments from ‘Lawful Good’ to ‘Chaotic Evil.’ Some major examples: **Willow Rosenberg** from _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ - Becomes power-mad by abusing her spellcasting abilities, has a nervous breakdown after seeing her true love shot before her eyes, and goes on a rampage, fighting her former friends. **Anakin Skywalker** from _Star Wars I - III_ - Debatable given that the audience knows from the very start that he will eventually become Darth Vader. But the prequel trilogy is all about him going from innocent tyke and good guy Jedi to the Dark Side. Who else? \*Before anybody jumps in and contradicts me, **I KNOW** that this storyline has been significantly retconned, changed and made intensely more complicated. But this was how the original storyline was written, and even canon for a couple of years. It is also, for the purposes of this thread, all the necessary background necessary to explain the “Dark Phoenix” meme. Nobody needs to post that “Jean Grey and Phoenix were really two different characters, blah, blah, blah…” ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/2 "2009-01-07T16:59:39Z")
Harvey Dent, aka Two-Face. A classic example of “Trauma = Fall From Grace.” ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/3 "2009-01-07T17:04:36Z")
Jason Todd, a/k/a Robin II, who should have stayed dead IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/4 "2009-01-07T17:05:38Z")
In Colleen McCulloughs “Masters of Rome” series in each book it describes the rise to power of the hero fighting the odds who in the next book becomes the enemy of the the new hero whos rise to power fighting the odds is described. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Tyger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Silver\_Tyger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Tyger)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/5 "2009-01-07T17:08:24Z")
Professor Xavier, at least twice (Onslaught and in the truly horrible X-men/Micronauts crossover) ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/6 "2009-01-07T17:08:27Z")
One of the earlier popular SF usages, and the one that Claremont and Byrne specifically referenced as a source was Star Trek’s “Where No Man Has Gone Before” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/7 "2009-01-07T17:27:45Z")
> [@Silver Tyger Girl](#): > > Professor Xavier, at least twice (Onslaught and in the truly horrible X-men/Micronauts crossover) I’ll argue with you about Onslaught another time, but wasn’t Xavier mind-controlled in the Micronauts crossover too? That guy gets brainwashed so often he might as well join the Squadron Supreme. (Of course, the main thing I remeber about the X-Men/'Nauts crossover was the gratuitous panty shots of Dani Moonstar.) ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/8 "2009-01-07T17:47:04Z")
I believe that nearly every major bad guy in the Warcraft series was originally a hero. It makes reading through the lore rather tedious. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/9 "2009-01-07T17:52:13Z")
Didn’t Hal Jordan (former Green Lantern) become some kind of evil superbeing? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/10 "2009-01-07T17:58:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Didn’t Hal Jordan (former Green Lantern) become some kind of evil superbeing? Sure. Going evil for a little while is de rigeur in the Justice League unless you’re Plastic Man. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/11 "2009-01-07T18:04:22Z")
Hulk Hogan ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/12 "2009-01-07T18:07:07Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > (Of course, the main thing I remember about the X-Men/'Nauts crossover was the gratuitous panty shots of Dani Moonstar.) I’m going to need some evidence of that. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Tyger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Silver\_Tyger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Tyger)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/13 "2009-01-07T18:10:11Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’ll argue with you about Onslaught another time, but wasn’t Xavier mind-controlled in the Micronauts crossover too? That guy gets brainwashed so often he might as well join the Squadron Supreme. > > (Of course, the main thing I remeber about the X-Men/'Nauts crossover was the gratuitous panty shots of Dani Moonstar.) I never read all the Onslaught stuff so I don’t know for sure what all that was about, but in the Micronauts xover all the evil impulses he controls all the time got loose and decided to not around with a stick up his ass. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/14 "2009-01-07T18:21:49Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > I’m going to need some evidence of that. 😃 Sorry, the issue’s long since lost. It was the 3rd or 4th installment of the X-Men/Nauts crossover. I remember thinking (even as a teenager) that the scene was ridiculous. She and the New Mutants had been left behind to tend to Xavier’s comatose body while the senior team was off fighting for justice or whatnot, and on the splash page, she’s dozing, while in the same room as her sleeping mentor, in only a tee-shirt and panties. Admittedly Dani was fairly casual about clothes, but I still didn’t buy it. [QUOTE=Silver Tyger Girl] [QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] I’ll argue with you about Onslaught another time, but wasn’t Xavier mind-controlled in the Micronauts crossover too? That guy gets brainwashed so often he might as well join the Squadron Supreme. (Of course, the main thing I remeber about the X-Men/'Nauts crossover was the gratuitous panty shots of Dani Moonstar.) [/QUOTE] I never read all the Onslaught stuff so I don’t know for sure what all that was about, but in the Micronauts xover all the evil impulses he controls all the time got loose and decided to not around with a stick up his ass. [/QUOTE] Gods of Earth & Air-- do NOT read the Onslaught stuff! Spare yourself! Basically the same thing happens, though. Amusingly, the lead-up to Xavier’s turn to the fuscia is foreshadowed by Jean Grey coming across a memory of his from when she was 15 or say, thinking that he was in love with her. As she’d been his \*\*psychiartric patient \*\*at that point for half her life, she was understandably skeeved. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/15 "2009-01-07T18:37:02Z")
Quicksilver has gone rogue on numerous occasions The 1950s Marvel Boy became the villainous Crusader in a Fantastic Four story circa 1975. Not sure how this squares with **Agents of Atlas**. Triumph, the time-displaced member of the Justice League, died fighting them. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/16 "2009-01-07T18:55:09Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Quicksilver has gone rogue on numerous occasions Well, to be fair, he STARTED as a villain, who’s reformed a few times. I’m not sure a backslide on that really counts, here. Or any number of characters could count. > [@](#): > > The 1950s Marvel Boy became the villainous Crusader in a Fantastic Four story circa 1975. Not sure how this squares with **Agents of Atlas**. Crusader has been retconned as a different guy - a messed up clone that was supposed to be more obedient to the Uranians (but just went crazy, instead), IIRC. The Marvel Boy in AoA is the original, true one. OK, and as to another one…Jericho, the second son of Deathstroke the Terminator, was a hero for a long time…unfortunately, his power, which allowed him to possess other people, meant he was corrupted by the evil he touched in other people’s minds, and he went…really quite psycho. Ironically, at this point, his father was a good guy (well…not a bad guy, in any case)…and forced to kill him to save the world. Now Joey’s alive again, was briefly back to being a good guy, but has backslid (apparently…I gave up on Titans after issue…4 or so, so this is secondhand info). And his father’s back to being a bad guy. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/17 "2009-01-07T19:00:24Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Amusingly, the lead-up to Xavier’s turn to the fuscia is foreshadowed by Jean Grey coming across a memory of his from when she was 15 or say, thinking that he was in love with her. As she’d been his \*\*psychiartric patient \*\*at that point for half her life, she was understandably skeeved. Although, to be fair, that comes from X-Men 1, 2, 3 or 4, circa 1964. I don’t remember the bad-guy they were up against, but the panel is of Xavier looking at the X-Men leaving his office (or he’s looking down at them in the yard from his office) and thinking something VERY close to “Oh Jean, if only I dared tell you how I love you.” It’s pretty clear that Lee (who was writing pretty much every Marvel book\* got confused and meant for that to be a Cyclops line-Cyclops said/thought it at least once . What’s funny is that Kirby apparently was so busy as well that he didn’t question this 40-50 year old guy being all horny for a 16 year old and simply drew Professor X with a pained/tortured expression as he thought that. \*I think his brother (Larry Leiber) was writing either Iron Man or Thor. But Lee was also writing the Patsy Walker stuff (like 4 books) in addition to like 9 other titles (This is pre-Roy Thomas). So he often got sloppy like when Doc Ock called Spider-Man “Superman” or the whole “Robert”/“Bruce” Banner thing…or this. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/18 "2009-01-07T19:08:02Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Quicksilver has gone rogue on numerous occasions. Oh, how could I have forgotten the Scarlet Witch? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/19 "2009-01-07T19:22:29Z")
Satan was the original. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236/20 "2009-01-07T19:59:18Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > …this 40-50 year old guy being all horny for a 16 year old… Well…it’s not _that_ rare ;). I think it would actually add a lot of bite to discover that Professor X has always been a closeted bisexual ephebophile, secretly lusting after all of his teen students :D. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-dark-phoenix-phenomenon-when-good-characters-go-bad/480236.md?page=2)